Should I change churches?

[Dave L]

The fact that Calvin got it right is opinion. Many people have disagreed with him and many of those have been much more knowledgeable than myself and possibly even you. I know not.

All I know is that I've been blessed to have been to many denominations growing up and not been exposed to one set of teaching. I can't reconcile Calvin's theological views with over 30 years of reading the Bible and it turns God into a different one to the one I have loved. The God I have so much reverent awe of is perfectly Just. His desire is that all be saved and I feel that everybody has the chance to come to know Him. Not just what Calvinists call the 'elect'. I also believe that eternal punishment would not be just if we had no choice in accepting or denying Christ's atonement. It seems heretical.

This thread isn't supposed to be about Calvinism and I'd rather not get into it. I mentioned Calvinism so people could see what I was concerned about. I'm happy to remain and fellowship with my sisters and brothers for the time being though.

Here's how it works. You have only 3 choices in salvation. God saves and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism). You save yourself with God's help and split the glory Arminianism/Semipelagianism). Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory Pelagianism/Socinianism. Take your pick.

 

[Sam91]

Here's how it works. You have only 3 choices in salvation. God saves and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism). You save yourself with God's help and split the glory Arminianism/Semipelagianism). Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory Pelagianism/Socinianism. Take your pick.

People who are not Calvinists agree that God saves and gets the glory! Where does the Bible say to pick a theologian and follow that human's understanding?

The Holy Spirit teaches. Christ says to call no one Rabbi, teacher. People are fallible. I'm not saying each should go their own way and believe what they want but I think suggesting we need to adhere to any category of thinking rather than depending on and trusting in Him who can lead us into understanding.

 

[Dave L]

People who are not Calvinists agree that God saves and gets the glory! Where does the Bible say to pick a theologian and follow that human's understanding?

The Holy Spirit teaches. Christ says to call no one Rabbi, teacher. People are fallible. I'm not saying each should go their own way and believe what they want but I think suggesting we need to adhere to any category of thinking rather than depending on and trusting in Him who can lead us into understanding.

They say that but credit themselves for salvation = self-righteousness.

 

[Jordan1989]

Here's how it works. You have only 3 choices in salvation.

I agree with you that we have a choice in our salvation!

God saves and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism). You save yourself with God's help and split the glory Arminianism/Semipelagianism). Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory Pelagianism/Socinianism. Take your pick.

I disagree with you here, and this is a common Calvinistic argument that I believe is misrepresentative of what others like myself believe. I don't believe that I, in myself, get ANY glory by choosing through my God-given free will to accept God's gracious gift of salvation; all glory goes to God, because he is the one that provided the gift of salvation! Were it not for God offering this wonderful gift, I would have no hope whatsoever and would be headed for hell and an eternity of torture and suffering for my sins.

I don't believe I "save myself" either by accepting God's gift. God is the only one who does the saving. The difference between you and I is I believe that God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to use faith in Jesus executed by our free will as his sovereign condition for giving the gift of salvation. I believe that God wants us to truly love him - not to force us to love him.

Who in the world accepts a gift from someone and then says something like "well...you know, I REALLY did deserve this gift. Look at how awesome I am after all." doesn't the recipient of the gift say something along the lines of "Thank you for this gift! You didn't have to do that, but I thank you so much for it!"

The same is true, I believe, of our salvation. I say "Lord God, you didn't have to provide salvation to us all, but you do so because you are loving, kind, merciful, and compassionate! Thank you so much for this wonderful gift that I don't deserve! It's all because of you God, not me!"

I believe that just because one accepts a gift does not mean that they are meritorious of that gift. All credit and thanks goes to the gift-giver, because they didn't have to provide the gift.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with you that we have a choice in our salvation!



I disagree with you here, and this is a common Calvinistic argument that I believe is misrepresentative of what others like myself believe. I don't believe that I, in myself, get ANY glory by choosing through my God-given free will to accept God's gracious gift of salvation; all glory goes to God, because he is the one that provided the gift of salvation! Were it not for God offering this wonderful gift, I would have no hope whatsoever and would be headed for hell and an eternity of torture and suffering for my sins.

I don't believe I "save myself" either by accepting God's gift. God is the only one who does the saving. The difference between you and I is I believe that God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to use faith in Jesus executed by our free will as his sovereign condition for giving the gift of salvation. I believe that God wants us to truly love him - not to force us to love him.

Who in the world accepts a gift from someone and then says something like "well...you know, I REALLY did deserve this gift. Look at how awesome I am after all." doesn't the recipient of the gift say something along the lines of "Thank you for this gift! You didn't have to do that, but I thank you so much for it!"

The same is true, I believe, of our salvation. I say "Lord God, you didn't have to provide salvation to us all, but you do so because you are loving, kind, merciful, and compassionate! Thank you so much for this wonderful gift that I don't deserve! It's all because of you God, not me!"

I believe that just because one accepts a gift does not mean that they are meritorious of that gift. All credit and thanks goes to the gift-giver, because they didn't have to provide the gift.

Either God alone saves, or you save yourself in the end. No Calvinism = you save, not God.

 

[Sam91]

They say that but credit themselves for salvation = self-righteousness.

I doubt it. I'm not a Calvinist and know that it is only through being clothed in Christ's righteousness that I can stand.

It is also recognised that it is only through God's grace that they can come to Him.

I feel that you are misrepresenting other's views in order to make a point, intentional or not.

The song I had for my baptism and the one I hope to have at my funeral.

 

[Dave L]

I doubt it. I'm not a Calvinist and know that it is only through being clothed in Christ's righteousness that I can stand.

It is also recognised that it is only through God's grace that they can come to Him.

I feel that you misrepresent other's views in order to make a point, intentional or not.

The song I had for my baptism and the one I hope to have at my funeral.

But you think you clothed yourself in Christ's righteousness and split the glory with him.

 

[Sam91]

But you think you clothed yourself in Christ's righteousness and split the glory with him.

That is the not what I said.

 

[Dave L]

That is the not what I said.

It's how it pans out.

 

[Jordan1989]

Either God alone saves, or you save yourself in the end. No Calvinism = you save, not God.

Agreed! God alone saves. And it is my belief that God has, in his sovereignty, chosen to save us through our faith in Jesus (that we choose to accept or reject through our free will). He made the rules and it sour responsibility to obey them. Again, if it weren't for Jesus, there would be hope and no way out. It is all of God.

The difference between you and I is that I don't believe God forces us to believe in him. He wants us to love him. If I forced a woman to marry me by dragging her on stage and attaching electrical wires to her and shocked her and forced her to say "I do", would we say that she freely chose to me and love me? Absolutely not.

 

[Dave L]

Agreed! God alone saves. And it is my belief that God has, in his sovereignty, chosen to save us through our faith in Jesus (that we choose to accept or reject through our free will). He made the rules and it sour responsibility to obey them. Again, if it weren't for Jesus, there would be hope and no way out. It is all of God.

The difference between you and I is that I don't believe God forces us to believe in him. He wants us to love him. If I forced a woman to marry me by dragging her on stage and attaching electrical wires to her and shocked her and forced her to say "I do", would we say that she freely chose to me and love me? Absolutely not.

If you accept in the flesh = you save yourself. God gives us a new heart so we can believe and repent.

 

[Sam91]

It's how it pans out.

How? In 1999 I believed it was only through grace and now in 2019 I believe the same. I do not think that belief will suddenly change. Rather as time has progressed He has made me more humble and less sure of myself.

My awe at His sovereignity, Holiness, Justness, Provision and compassion keeps growing. He gets higher and I get less. Understanding grows with time too. He is a perfect Father and teacher who writes His commands on our hearts and the love for His ways deepens.

One of my fears of Calvinism is of the lack of fruit it leads too and the complacency towards sin. If you love Him, you will obey Him... in everything. I've noticed that with a lot of posters who have immersed themselves too much in man's teaching. Many portray pride and a lack of love. There is little harmony even though it is possible to disagree but remain in unity with brothers.

I can't know the heart of man and can only look to the fruits and I fear gaining man's wisdom and cooling of in my love for Christ and my brothers and sisters.

 

[Dave L]

How? In 1999 I believed it was only through grace and now in 2019 I believe the same. I do not think that belief will suddenly change. Rather as time has progressed He has made me more humble and less sure of myself.

My awe at His sovereignity, Holiness, Justness, Provision and compassion keeps growing. He gets higher and I get less. Understanding grows with time too. He is a perfect Father and teacher who writes His commands on our hearts and the love for His ways deepens.

One of my fears of Calvinism is of the lack of fruit it leads too. I've noticed that with a lot of posters who have immersed themselves too much in man's teaching. Many portray pride and a lack of love. There is little harmony even though it is possible to disagree but remain in unity with brothers.

I can't know the heart of man and can only look to the fruits and I fear gaining man's wisdom and cooling of in my love for Christ and my brothers and sisters.

You are the savior if God awaits your response.

 

[Sam91]

You are the savior if God awaits your response.

I'm done. God bless you brother.

Maybe someone else will provide you with the list of bible verses that statement requires but I've pointed out to you that is not what I believe 2 or 3 times, a 4th is not going to change anything.

 

[Jordan1989]

If you accept in the flesh = you save yourself. God gives us a new heart so we can believe and repent.

We will have to agree to disagree here.

Mark 1:14-15 says
“Later on, after John was arrested, Jesus went into Galilee, where he preached God’s Good News. “The time promised by God has come at last!” he announced. “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!””
‭‭
Was Jesus telling some to repent and believe the good news when they were actually totally unable to do so? If that were true, Jesus would've been a liar in making this statement. And we obviously know Jesus cannot tell a lie.

 

[Jordan1989]

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37‬ ‭

I want to highlight "but you wouldn't let me." It seems to me here that Jesus was saying they could've chosen otherwise, but they chose not to accept Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

We will have to agree to disagree here.

Mark 1:14-15 says
“Later on, after John was arrested, Jesus went into Galilee, where he preached God’s Good News. “The time promised by God has come at last!” he announced. “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!””
‭‭
Was Jesus telling some to repent and believe the good news when they were actually totally unable to do so? If that were true, Jesus would've been a liar in making this statement. And we obviously know Jesus cannot tell a lie.

He was telling OT Jews to repent (change their mind) and enter the New Covenant.

 

[Dave L]

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37‬ ‭

I want to highlight "but you wouldn't let me." It seems to me here that Jesus was saying they could've chosen otherwise, but they chose not to accept Jesus.

= city officials brought judgement for leading Jerusalem in the way of wickedness. = nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Jordan1989]

He was telling OT Jews to repent (change their mind) and enter the New Covenant.

So why was Jesus telling them to do something that some of them were unable to do? Wouldn't that make Jesus a liar? If he said "repent and believe the good news" but they truly couldn't, that would be a dishonest statement.

 

[Dave L]

So why was Jesus telling them to do something that some of them were unable to do? Wouldn't that make Jesus a liar? If he said "repent and believe the good news" but they truly couldn't, that would be a dishonest statement.

The born again Jews all repented and joined the New Covenant.