Should I change churches?

[Bible Highlighter]

This post has been moved to this thread here.

 

[Sam91]

I disagree. I don't think everyone is given that chance.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

It's not human will that decides...but God.

John 6:44 tells us....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 16:16 puts it this way...You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you

@Jason0047 has described pretty much what I believe with his summary of 'prevenient grace' under the spoiler button.

While I can't say whether I agree or disagree with the whole of that doctrine, what he has written coincides with how I understand the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Like him or not, Lewis is recognized by many Christians for his contributions to Christianity.

Absolutely. But there is no question about what his beliefs were, meaning that there ought not to be any surprise when his view of this issue is quoted. It's not as though something unexpected was just revealed!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 has described pretty much what I believe with his summary of 'prevenient grace' under the spoiler button.

While I can't say whether I agree or disagree with the whole of that doctrine, what he has written coincides with how I understand the Bible.

Thank you. I see salvation as something as Synergistic and not something that is forced upon a person. This is what I believe the Bible teaches and it keeps intact the good character of our Lord.

 

[Jordan1989]

Absolutely. But there is no question about what his beliefs were, meaning that there ought not to be any surprise when his view of this issue is quoted. It's not as though something unexpected was just revealed!

There are actually people out there who do not know CS Lewis did not support Calvinism. One of my favorite theologians used to be a Five Point Calvinist. He was so passionate in his Calvinism, that he ended up causing a church split over the issue.

He previously assumed that all well-respected Theologians agreed with Calvinism, but then as he did more research, he realized that there were others out there like A.W. Tozer, Lewis, and more that did not agree with Calvinism. This caused him to begin to question why and dig deeper. He is no longer a Calvinist anymore.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is not everyone knows this about Lewis, even though you do.

 

[Albion]

Thank you. I see salvation as something as Synergistic and not something that is forced upon a person. This is what I believe the Bible teaches and it keeps intact the good character of our Lord.

Why is it that opponents of election always say that the one thing that humans have wanted most of all, wanted throughout our history...might be "forced upon" them? Speaking of things that are illogical, that argument is something that ought to top the list.

 

[Albion]

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is not everyone knows this about Lewis, even though you do.

Well, that wasn't my point. It read like saying "Here's proof positive--even Billy Graham believes that the Bible is reliable!" Even?

But it was just a curious thing noted. Nothing more than that.

 

[Jordan1989]

Well, that wasn't my point. It read like saying "Here's proof positive--even Billy Graham believes that the Bible is reliable!" Even?

But it was just a curious thing noted. Nothing more than that.

Glad we understand each other now. No - i wasn't suggesting proof positive. That would be foolish. Only pointing out that Lewis (a respected theologian) disagreed with Calvinism (to enlighten those who may not be aware of this).

 

[-57]

Romans 9:15 is a quote from when Moses asked to see God's glory in Exodus.

We spoke already about John 6 and John 16:16 isn't the correct reference. I'll need to find it.

God knows the heart and who'll come to Him when called and who won't.

God has to open your heart first. Lydia style.
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Eph 2:But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

We were dead...dead...in our trespasses. In that state God made us alive. Regenerated us. Quickened us. Drug us off of the bottom of the lake and restored life to us as my analogy presented.

Exo 33:19 is a bit deeper than that simple explanation of Moses asking for a request to see Gods glory. The verses that surround Romans 9:15 speaks of Gods sovereignty. His choice. The example of the twins was provided earlier. The decision was made prior to them being born, before they even did any good for bad.

 

[Jordan1989]

God has to open your heart first. Lydia style.
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Eph 2:But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

We were dead...dead...in our trespasses. In that state God made us alive. Regenerated us. Quickened us. Drug us off of the bottom of the lake and restored life to us as my analogy presented.

Exo 33:19 is a bit deeper than that simple explanation of Moses asking for a request to see Gods glory. The verses that surround Romans 9:15 speaks of Gods sovereignty. His choice. The example of the twins was provided earlier. The decision was made prior to them being born, before they even did any good for bad.

Ephesians 2 says nothing about the sinner not being able to believe and nothing about the condition of his will in regard to the accepting or rejecting the gospel. It says the sinner is dead in trespasses and sin, walks according to the course of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, is a child of disobedience, and is by nature the child of wrath.

But this is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity which goes beyond the actual words of Scripture, such as those we find in this important passage, and adds the business about the sinner’s will and him not being able to believe.

In Acts 16:14, I would argue that Lydia was already a faithful follower of God and in a position to receive Jesus. Before the Lord opened her heart, it says that she was "a worshiper of God". She was saved already by faith just as Abraham was before the coming of Jesus.

Put another way, if a trusted friend told you to listen to a podcast because you could learn something from it would you thank that trusted friend for “opening your eyes” to the truth that your learned from that podcast after you listened?

Could it be that Lydia (like Cornelius) worshipped God but didn’t yet know of Jesus and thus we merely prompted by God to listen to one of His chosen messengers so they could believe in the Son and not just His Father?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

 

[Sam91]

God has to open your heart first. Lydia style.
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Eph 2:But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

We were dead...dead...in our trespasses. In that state God made us alive. Regenerated us. Quickened us. Drug us off of the bottom of the lake and restored life to us as my analogy presented.

Exo 33:19 is a bit deeper than that simple explanation of Moses asking for a request to see Gods glory. The verses that surround Romans 9:15 speaks of Gods sovereignty. His choice. The example of the twins was provided earlier. The decision was made prior to them being born, before they even did any good for bad.

Yes, but Romans 9 is also talking about His plan and much more, not individuals.

I think that we've given each other an inkling into each others views. If mine ever change it will be in the future and through the Lord leading me that way. I thank you for the time that you have spent sharing those verses and showing me more of how Calvinism is derived.

 

[Albion]

Ephesians 2 says nothing about the sinner not being able to believe and nothing about the condition of his will in regard to the accepting or rejecting the gospel. It says the sinner is dead in trespasses and sin, walks according to the course of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, is a child of disobedience, and is by nature the child of wrath.

But this is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity....

Isn't the doctrine of total depravity about Man in his natural state? Of course if he is then gifted with Faith, he is enabled to overcome that state.

In Acts 16:14, I would argue that Lydia was already saved. Before the Lord opened her heart, it says that she was "a worshiper of God".

Are we sure that she was already saved? To be a worshipper of God, even the true god, is not necessarily to have saving Faith.

 

[Jordan1989]

Yes, but Romans 9 is also talking about His plan and much more, not individuals.

I think that we've given each other an inkling into each others views. If mine ever change it will be in the future and through the Lord leading me that way. I thank you for the time that you have spent sharing those verses and showing me more of how Calvinism is derived.

Sam, if you are really interested in hearing a non-Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 that I believe is biblically accurate, or really anything related to Calvinism, I would highly recommend Soteriology 101. They have a website, YouTube channel, and podcast. They have helped me to understand the nuances of Calvinism and identify the holes in their system.

I found this to be an excellent commentary on romans 9. Check it out if you are interested!

 

[Monksailor]

One must consider this: A person is known by the company which they keep; Birds of a feather flock together; and such. The Bible, Proverbs, also says this. i wish I could recall where, and I DO remember in Proverbs it tells us that bad company corrupts good character. So one is not thinking right, according to the wisest man on earth, if they think that they can hang with a group of people and not be changed by them.

Also, if one is obedient and a good steward of what God has given them they will not only be supporting that group and what it stands for merely by their presence, but with their resources of time, prayer, abilities, gifts, talents, money, and whatever. We will each answer to God where we spent those resources.

And we are instructed by the Apostle Paul, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." If something is being done or taught in a church which is clearly not Biblical it should be addressed/exposed.

 

[Sam91]

Sam, if you are really interested in hearing a non-Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 that I believe is biblically accurate, or really anything related to Calvinism, I would highly recommend Soteriology 101. They have a website, YouTube channel, and podcast. They have helped me to understand the nuances of Calvinism and identify the holes in their system.

I found this to be an excellent commentary on romans 9. Check it out if you are interested!

I think for now I need to read my Bible and forget this Calvinism vs non Calvinism debarcle. You see soteriology website will still be man's wisdom and this thread has me a little confused. Possibly because I've been looking at verses in isolation being portrayed to mean something different and in different contexts. I need to find time tonight to reread a few chapters, sat in His shelter. I need to give up my understanding and just read (Not to change my beliefs but to ease the confusion and get back to what is says rather than what I, or others, had said they mean.)

But thank you very much for your kind offer and for finding those links. It was good of you. Also, I thank you because your and Jason's posts have been useful in my tired confusion (4 hours sleep last night doesn't help) because they've been like an anchor.

 

[-57]

Ephesians 2 says nothing about the sinner not being able to believe and nothing about the condition of his will in regard to the accepting or rejecting the gospel. It says the sinner is dead in trespasses and sin, walks according to the course of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, is a child of disobedience, and is by nature the child of wrath.‬

As you said "and is by nature the child of wrath." By nature you can't come on your own.

But this is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity which goes beyond the actual words of Scripture, such as those we find in this important passage, and adds the business about the sinner’s will and him not being able to believe.

In Acts 16:14, I would argue that Lydia was already a faithful follower of God and in a position to receive Jesus. Before the Lord opened her heart, it says that she was "a worshiper of God". She was saved already by faith just as Abraham was before the coming of Jesus.‬

Was she? Many Jews..even today worship God and are not saved.

Put another way, if a trusted friend told you to listen to a podcast because you could learn something from it would you thank that trusted friend for “opening your eyes” to the truth that your learned from that podcast after you listened?‬

Lydias hearts opened first....then she heard the truth. You missed that point.

Could it be that Lydia (like Cornelius) worshipped God but didn’t yet know of Jesus and thus we merely prompted by God to listen to one of His chosen messengers so they could believe in the Son and not just His Father?

Yes. She was chosen by God and He opened her heart. If God didn't open her heart she would not have believed.

As you said "and is by nature the child of wrath." By nature you can't come on your own.

But this is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity which goes beyond the actual words of Scripture, such as those we find in this important passage, and adds the business about the sinner’s will and him not being able to believe.

In Acts 16:14, I would argue that Lydia was already a faithful follower of God and in a position to receive Jesus. Before the Lord opened her heart, it says that she was "a worshiper of God". She was saved already by faith just as Abraham was before the coming of Jesus.‬

Was she? Many Jews..even today worship God and are not saved.

Could it be that Lydia (like Cornelius) worshipped God but didn’t yet know of Jesus and thus we merely prompted by God to listen to one of His chosen messengers so they could believe in the Son and not just His Father?

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬

And you can't listen and come to God unless He grants you the ability. John 6:65

 

[-57]

Yes, but Romans 9 is also talking about His plan and much more, not individuals.

I think that we've given each other an inkling into each others views. If mine ever change it will be in the future and through the Lord leading me that way. I thank you for the time that you have spent sharing those verses and showing me more of how Calvinism is derived.

You're welcome. I hope you now see it's not based on some willy nilly concept.

 

[Sam91]

You're welcome. I hope you now see it's not based on some willy nilly concept.

I never have thought that becauseplenty of scholars agree with him. It's been useful but I need to just go back to the word for now. Thank you.

 

[Jordan1989]

I think for now I need to read my Bible and forget this Calvinism vs non Calvinism debarcle. You see soteriology website will still be man's wisdom and this thread has me a little confused. Possibly because I've been looking at verses in isolation being portrayed to mean something different and in different contexts. I need to find time tonight to reread a few chapters, sat in His shelter. I need to give up my understanding and just read (Not to change my beliefs but to ease the confusion and get back to what is says rather than what I, or others, had said they mean.)

But thank you very much for your kind offer and for finding those links. It was good of you. Also, I thank you because your and Jason's posts have been useful in my tired confusion (4 hours sleep last night doesn't help) because they've been like an anchor.

You're welcome

It is true that the site is ran by imperfect men; however I think you would find that they are constantly trying to state their beliefs with scripture. It isn't as if they are saying everything they believe without scriptural support. They've been able to point me to scripture that seems to be at odds with Calvinism, which has been very helpful.

I'll be praying for you that God will give you spiritual wisdom and discernment as you navigate the complex web that is Calvinism vs non-calvinism. God Bless!

 

[Sam91]

You're welcome

It is true that the site is ran by imperfect men; however I think you would find that they are constantly trying to state their beliefs with scripture. It isn't as if they are saying everything they believe without scriptural support. They've been able to point me to scripture that seems to be at odds with Calvinism, which has been very helpful.

It could be useful in future when something comes up. Thank you for recommending it. I'll have the link because I can review this thread. I have sometimes reviewed previous threads that I've made.