Should I change churches?

[-57]

Not really. I haven't tried to read up on any of those. You see that I am distrustful of man's wisdom and feel that any doctrine that needs to be justified by interpreting a number of verses in a way that has small differences from what it actually says and linking them together to make it have a little more (like when I tried to understand Calvinsm) makes me nervous.

I would prefer to hear what the Bible says with reference to what other verses say, with an additional knowledge perhaps of the time period. Something that isn't a different gospel from the one I was given in my Bible.

I say further on in the thread that people believe different things from each other and I don't want to rely on man's wisdom. Look how wrong the Pharisees were. They were very knowledgeable about scripture but lost sight of God.

I do know my Bible well, I'm not saying anything against scripture and the need to understand and obey it. Familiarity and God revealing His understanding is my preferred way. Also, of course, me not relying on my own understanding but living, trusting in Him.

I was trying to point out that Arminian and Plagian beliefs are based upon views of historical men. Just like Calvinism
Jacobus Arminius interpreted the Bible in a way you may be use to. What you call "man's wisdom".
Pelagianism is based upon what a British monk named Pelagius thought. That view is pretty much considered as heresy.

What makes you nervous about Calvinism?

 

[Sam91]

I was trying to point out that Arminian and Plagian beliefs are based upon views of historical men. Just like Calvinism
Jacobus Arminius interpreted the Bible in a way you may be use to. What you call "man's wisdom".
Pelagianism is based upon what a British monk named Pelagius thought. That view is pretty much considered as heresy.

What makes you nervous about Calvinism?

That I read John Piper's book explaining the 5 points, TULIP, and I gave up after reading the verses related to the first two points and failed to see how Calvin came up with what he did.

I would rather stick to what is revealed in the Bible without extrapolating as far as he has. Especially as God's attributes could be seen differently using the lens of Calvinism. If I had looked into Arminism I guess I'd feel similar about that, unless he hadn't extrapolated.

I do not think one can go beyond scripture to explain it and TULIP seems too, to me. I am well versed in what the Bible says from a non-scholar point of view, so it's not that there are sections/chapters that I haven't read multiple of times.

The concern I have is that I've noticed recently these points that I disagree with being introduced into the sermon where they are superfluous. It worries me because before the Bible was being preached. Lately, theology has been added in more. It wouldn't have felt like such an issue if it was related to the verses at hand but it wasn't.

I recognise that a lot... probably the majority.. adhere to Calvin's views, the thread isn't about Calvin but my being uncomfortable with what is being preached.

However, I've decided to stay in the meantime unless it becomes apparent I am supposed to be elsewhere.

 

[-57]

That I read John Piper's book explaining the 5 points, TULIP, and I gave up after reading the verses related to the first two points and failed to see how Calvin came up with what he did.

I would rather stick to what is revealed in the Bible without extrapolating as far as he has. Especially as God's attributes could be seen differently using the lens of Calvinism. If I had looked into Arminism I guess I'd feel similar about that, unless he hadn't extrapolated.

The T stands for total depravity. The Armenian view....and maybe your view...might look like this.

A man is in the middle of a lake drowning. He's about to go under for the last time. Someone throws out a life preserver and all that man has to do is reach out and grab the life preserver and be saved...pulled to shore. He chose to grab the life preserver and was saved.

The other view is that the man in the middle of the lake has drowned and is now laying on the bottom of the lake...dead. God has to jump into the water, dive down and drag your dead body to shore....then restore life to your dead body.

In the first view you choose Jesus while the second view says God chooses you. I prefer the second view.

 

[Mayflower1]

I say that going to church is for the Word of God and you need to go where you can best receive and apply what you hear. I am currently praying about this too. Ive gone to my church for seven years, but I not only pray in tongues, but in the short time I have visited this other church, I have begun home devotions again renewing myself in the Word, praying more, and a seeming end to a dry season I have felt going on in my spiritual walk. So keep in prayer and go where You can best grow in the Word of God, and He will direct Thy paths. I love Proverbs 3:5-6 too.

 

[Sam91]

The T stands for total depravity. The Armenian view....and maybe your view...might look like this.

A man is in the middle of a lake drowning. He's about to go under for the last time. Someone throws out a life preserver and all that man has to do is reach out and grab the life preserver and be saved...pulled to shore. He chose to grab the life preserver and was saved.

The other view is that the man in the middle of the lake has drowned and is now laying on the bottom of the lake...dead. God has to jump into the water, dive down and drag your dead body to shore....then restore life to your dead body.

In the first view you choose Jesus while the second view says God chooses you. I prefer the second view.

I subscribe to neither. Look at the little children. Many have a yearning to know God which some lose as they grow. (I know Romans makes a case for it when Paul points out that it is unnatural for sinful man to desire God its 2:30am btw) The Bible makes it clear throughout the OT that people can choose righteousness or not.

The Bible makes it clear that sin is bad, that none of us can live that perfect life. That salvation comes from what Jesus did and that is a gift and can't be earned. I'm so tired, maybe I can make sense tomorrow.. Good night.

 

[-57]

I subscribe to neither.

Well, what do you subscribe to? Maybe you can teach me something.

 

[Sam91]

Well, what do you subscribe to? Maybe you can teach me something.

I can't. I'm too tired. Tried to explain above but too sleepy and I can see where everyone can pull it apart to shreds. If it wasn't so late I could pull up the Bible references I am thinking of from Ezekiel, Samuel, Genesis, Job, the Gospels.

I dare say I have a lot of little things wrong but God cares about my heart, my faith and my dependence on Him and will hold me fast.

I'll be going to bed with this thought on my mind 'Sheep aren't expected to know everything about their master, the Shepherd.' They trust Him and get themselves lost and caught up in things from time to time. The Shepherd is much greater than a sheep and infinitely wiser. The sheep can only understand things from their small perspective. A shepherd protects the sheep and the Good Shepherd will do so perfectly.

 

[rockytopva]

I am at a Church where I have many peers and it has a good Sunday school for my children. I have few friends outside Church and no relatives.

I liked my Church because it was a Bible preaching church. I liked the way that preaching was based on the Bible and not on what others make of it.. eg Calvin.

I have in recent weeks been aware of Calvinistic teachings being uttered more than once. I've read a book on Calvinism and fail to see how Calvin concluded what he did. I look at the same verses and see it differently. Should I ignore this? I'm a huge fan of Proverbs 3:5-6 and trust more what the Lord teaches than any doctrine of man. I also don't want to have itchy ears and seek out preachers who say what I want them too.

Please advise and pray for wisdom. There aren't many options of other Churches around.

I don’t like the Calvin guy either. I can come up with a summarization on how Smith Wigglesworth came to use the power of God in his own life...

1. Listen to the voice of the Lord to discern the situation
2. Make a Faith Inspiring Power Statement based upon the discernment.
3. Pray a power Prayer in the name of Jesus based upon the Power Statement.

And how the Azusa Street mission come to know the power of God in metaphor to the Hebrew Temple...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification. A good foot washing service can accomplish these ends.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand- Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc.
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I have noticed that the revivals of the Philadelphian church have basically come to an end. In this day and time there is a danger in getting trapped in a denomination that has long ago disappeared into the enchanted ground. I was listening to two sisters talk in an Assembly of God church and they said they heard that in the last days the people were going to have to, "Cut their own paths." In doing so we may end up in a church that is not exactly what we want, but sometimes we have got to make best do.

"When a man becomes a Christian, he becomes industrious, trustworthy and prosperous. Now, if that man, when he gets all he can and saves all he can, does not give all he can, I have more hope for Judas Iscariot than for that man!" -John Wesley

"When a man dies they ought to have enough to bury him and a few pense for his friends." -John Wesley."

 

[PaulCyp1]

You say your church's preaching was based on the Bible, not on what Calvin thought of it. Can't you see the problem here? What you are really saying is that you prefer your pastor's interpretations of the Bible to Calvin's interpretations. And Calvinists prefer Calvin's interpretations to your pastor's interpretations. And each of the 6,000 other Protestant denominations prefers their denomination's interpretations. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so what these thousands of conflicting interpretations indicate is that untruth is rampant. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised the leadership of that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one one belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations. You really should check it out. You'll never look back to unauthorized manmade denominational religion after experiencing the fullness of truth, right where Jesus said you would find it.

 

[Albion]

You say your church's preaching was based on the Bible, not on what Calvin thought of it. Can't you see the problem here? What you are really saying is that you prefer your pastor's interpretations of the Bible to Calvin's interpretations. And Calvinists prefer Calvin's interpretations to your pastor's interpretations. And each of the 6,000 other Protestant denominations prefers their denomination's interpretations.

That argument is a trick with words. ANY church can contrast itself, alone, against all the rest of the churches of Christendom or any large bloc of them and, voila, that one looks united while the remaining bunch of churches are made to look divided.

No matter which church arranges the two sides this way--1 versus thousands--it always works out the same.

 

[Sam91]

You say your church's preaching was based on the Bible, not on what Calvin thought of it. Can't you see the problem here? What you are really saying is that you prefer your pastor's interpretations of the Bible to Calvin's interpretations. And Calvinists prefer Calvin's interpretations to your pastor's interpretations. And each of the 6,000 other Protestant denominations prefers their denomination's interpretations. Truth cannot conflict with truth, so what these thousands of conflicting interpretations indicate is that untruth is rampant. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised the leadership of that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that one Church remains one one belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations. You really should check it out. You'll never look back to unauthorized manmade denominational religion after experiencing the fullness of truth, right where Jesus said you would find it.

I was saying you couldn't differentiate what he was saying from the Bible. As in, he was explaining what the verses meant from the Bible and cross referencing from other sections. I was heartened by how closely what he said followed the Bible as a whole. I liked that. This continued for two years which was very reassuring.

Latterly there have been occasions where that has changed to hearing doctrine added in too. I thought he was probably a Calvinist but liked that I only heard the Bible not TULIP.

You speak of the one church like others mysteriously do but rarely say what they mean. I don't know what you mean but agree with you about not needing anyone to teach. God does that through the Holy Spirit, using life and His word.

 

[-57]

I can't. I'm too tired. Tried to explain above but too sleepy and I can see where everyone can pull it apart to shreds. If it wasn't so late I could pull up the Bible references I am thinking of from Ezekiel, Samuel, Genesis, Job, the Gospels.

I dare say I have a lot of little things wrong but God cares about my heart, my faith and my dependence on Him and will hold me fast.

I'll be going to bed with this thought on my mind 'Sheep aren't expected to know everything about their master, the Shepherd.' They trust Him and get themselves lost and caught up in things from time to time. The Shepherd is much greater than a sheep and infinitely wiser. The sheep can only understand things from their small perspective. A shepherd protects the sheep and the Good Shepherd will do so perfectly.

Fair enough.

Maybe tomorrow. Just trying to answer your question. Right now I say stay.

 

[-57]

I don’t like the Calvin guy either. I can come up with a summarization on how Smith Wigglesworth came to use the power of God in his own life...

How does that diagram disagree with Calvinism? You posted it but I didn't see it.

 

[Bonnie-Jean]

That I read John Piper's book explaining the 5 points, TULIP, and I gave up after reading the verses related to the first two points and failed to see how Calvin came up with what he did.

I would rather stick to what is revealed in the Bible without extrapolating as far as he has. Especially as God's attributes could be seen differently using the lens of Calvinism. If I had looked into Arminism I guess I'd feel similar about that, unless he hadn't extrapolated.

I do not think one can go beyond scripture to explain it and TULIP seems to, too me. I am well versed in what the Bible says from a non-scholar point of view, so it's not that there are sections/chapters that I haven't read multiple of times.

The concern I have is that I've noticed recently these points that I disagree with being introduced into the sermon where they are superfluous. It worries me because before the Bible was being preached. Lately, theology has been added in more. It wouldn't have felt like such an issue if it was related to the verses at hand but it wasn't.

I recognise that a lot... probably the majority.. adhere to Calvin's views, the thread isn't about Calvin but my being uncomfortable with what is being preached.

However, I've decided to stay in the meantime unless it becomes apparent I am supposed to be elsewhere.

I do think I understand what you are experiencing. I am a Molinist when it comes to this topic of discussion. Molinism is basically a middle viewpoint, neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. Molinists seek to show how God's sovereignty and one's freewill are actually compatible. We do not have to sacrifice one for the other. William Lane Craig has some good books and articles on this point.

But, not to get off topic....

I think the real issue is, how does this community of believers treat you? Loving God and others is the most important commandment, yet it is often not treated as such. I do not have a problem accepting those with views that are different than mine, but I have noticed a lot of Calvinists seem intolerant of my views! Maybe I've just had bad luck...lol. I am sure some Arminians also are not accepting of differences (not trying to step on toes here!).

I went to a church a few years ago that I loved for its sound teaching, but there was so little love there it was a waste! I would say, if you feel they are genuinely loving people who have good boundaries with your beliefs, then this is a gray area that should not ruin your experience . But, only you know how they are putting forth their views. I think humility is SO important when discussing these issues.

Praying God gives you wisdom as the situation continues to unfold!

 

[Monksailor]

I had to leave a church. It is very, very difficult to find a new Bible preaching, conservative church these days even if you have many to chose from. If yours is such as I described do all you can do to reconcile your differences or learn to accept your differences. One whole chptr and the first few of the next may help you see to accept your differences. Romans ch 14 My wife and I are now going on near 10 years w/o a church family. We have visited MANY for several weeks to months. It is mostly me as I run point on the venture as another described. We are still looking and having to cross denominational lines to unthinkable degrees in previous years but much of, if not all of, the newer church groups have all of this mumbo jumbo in their churches. One is nothing but a ear splitting woodstock which warns you to bring ear plugs online if you are from a quieter church or another is in a mini-mall store or whse with flat black everywhere and a rock stage for the pulpit or another a woman is preaching or a husband and wife are the pastors and so many are getting off into the prosperity pile of dung doctrine and on and on. Our church worship experience, and thank God for this, is Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah, In touch w/Dr. Chls Stanley, and LTW w/ Dr. Michael Youuseff, and a few others. We are NOT intentionally forsaking the fellowship of saints. Read Ro ch 14 and maybe something will be able to help you there.

 

[Jordan1989]

I am at a Church where I have many peers and it has a good Sunday school for my children. I have few friends outside Church and no relatives.

I liked my Church because it was a Bible preaching church. I liked the way that preaching was based on the Bible and not on what others make of it.. eg Calvin.

I have in recent weeks been aware of Calvinistic teachings being uttered more than once. I've read a book on Calvinism and fail to see how Calvin concluded what he did. I look at the same verses and see it differently. Should I ignore this? I'm a huge fan of Proverbs 3:5-6 and trust more what the Lord teaches than any doctrine of man. I also don't want to have itchy ears and seek out preachers who say what I want them too.

Please advise and pray for wisdom. There aren't many options of other Churches around.

I can relate with you, as I discovered my church's pastor and founding pastor both believed in Calvinism a couple years ago. I was going through a very rough patch in life at the time with my wife and struggling with anxiety and depression, and I was struggling to find convincing resources to combat their Calvinistic interpretations of scripture (Romans 9, Ephesians 1, John 6, etc).

Due to my already poor state of mental health, I could not bear to think that it was possible God didn't choose me, or possibly my family, or the future kids I was hoping to have. I actually became suicidal for a time, thinking "perhaps God isn't the all-loving God I thought he was my entire life". Perhaps he only created me or my family for destruction and eternal torture in hell." I ended up leaving and going to another church.

It was difficult - I was married in my church, made many friends there, was baptized, served, did small groups, and more.

After much study and searching, I found an alternative view of soteriology to Calvinism and Arminianism, and also some teachers that were able to provide me alternative interpretations of key Calvinistic verses. I am now 100% convinced that Calvinism is in error.

I began going to a new church and have made many friends there and I am growing spiritually. I intentionally sought out a church that was not Calvinistic in its soteriology and found the preaching to be very refreshing.

But after a few months of attending, my pastor ended up resigning and was replaced with....a Calvinistic pastor.

I was initially upset; however, I have begun to truly love my pastor as a brother in Christ. His sermons are powerful, and I know he loves the Lord and is preaching what he believes to be true. Now that I am 100% convinced Calvinism is in error, it doesn't bother me nearly as much when I hear him low-key make a Calvinistic statement (which I'm sure a great majority of the congregation can't even tell due to them being unfamiliar with Calvinism).

Had I known before what I know now about Calvinism, I likely wouldn't have left my original church.

My advice to you would be to truly examine your heart and ask yourself if you are comfortable attending a church that preaches this doctrine. For some, it is a deal-breaker. For others, it is not. If my pastor went out of his way to talk about Calvinism, telling the church that none of us have the free will to place our faith in Christ, or that none of us have free will at all, it would be a deal breaker for me. But my pastor is much more low-key in his Calvinism. We have also began to dialogue back and forth through email, and he is listening to my interpretations of these scriptures, which I appreciate.

Prayers for wisdom for you!

Jordan

 

[Dropout_Theologian]

Praying for you. I used to have Calvin's commentary on the psalms; I've heard it said or read he was a softer man than one might imagine.

There are things at my church that drive me crazy. Hyper-focus on evangelism, ignoring the rules set forth in the Bible, etc. I try to be versed enough in scripture to rebuke those ideas in my own mind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am at a Church where I have many peers and it has a good Sunday school for my children. I have few friends outside Church and no relatives.

I liked my Church because it was a Bible preaching church. I liked the way that preaching was based on the Bible and not on what others make of it.. eg Calvin.

I have in recent weeks been aware of Calvinistic teachings being uttered more than once. I've read a book on Calvinism and fail to see how Calvin concluded what he did. I look at the same verses and see it differently. Should I ignore this? I'm a huge fan of Proverbs 3:5-6 and trust more what the Lord teaches than any doctrine of man. I also don't want to have itchy ears and seek out preachers who say what I want them too.

Please advise and pray for wisdom. There aren't many options of other Churches around.

The problem I have with Calvinism is that it appears to attack the good character of God in the fact that He chooses some people for salvation and other people for damnation based on no actual conditions within the individual themselves (i.e. Unconditional Election). This is a violation of basic morality 101. A person should not need a Bible to know God would not be like this. If a Pastor I liked turned out to be a secret Calvinist, I would stop going to his church and stop listening to him because I am strongly against the idea that Calvinism presents (Which is to ignore the good character of our God). I mean, why have a judgment if God was the one who forced them to be saved or not saved? It makes no sense. The Bible constantly refers to our having free will choice to choose the Lord. Choose this day in whom you will serve. Why does God get angry at the wicked every day according to the Psalms? Could He not just force change them to be saved and be happy? The Ninevites were able to divert God's judgment by their repentance and forsaking their evil ways. How can they change God's plan if God decrees things? Again, Calvinism does not make any sense when we read the Bible. One has to force a square peg into a round hole in order to make Calvinism work. It is odd and totally illogical. So I would encourage you to no longer attend the church you go to (that currently has a Calvinistic teachings). For me, a person has to have an understanding of the basics of God's good character before they can teach me anything in the Bible. But that's just me talking from my experience and understanding on God's Word. You will have to pray and make your own decision of course.

 

[anna ~ grace]

So.... if you have an even moderately conservative, reverent, old-school place to worship and there is literally nothing else around that comes close to being anywhere near where place a is on those three points, I would consider not letting Calvinist leanings drive you away.

I'm not saying that Calvinism is right.

I'm just saying that finding a place to worship and fellowship that is even remotely interested in obeying and following God, instead of zeitgeist, is getting rarer. And rarer.

I understand your concerns. And don't agree with Calvinism. But if this place is your only even vaguely conservative option, I would consider staying, at least for now.

 

[Sam91]

Another thing my pastor said was that God no longer performs miracles. Having had many small ones happen to me I can not believe that either. The Father delights in performing those in order to lead and guide in my opinion. Either way it leaves me humbled and in awe. I did try to broach that one with a facebook message and it was ignored. I wrote the message in a way that wasn't looking for an answer though.