Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Wordkeeper]

Mark 8:36?

You are not far from the Kingdom of God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Binary shift... Spirit taught... In or Out of HIM. One says hooray Me! The Other says Hooray God, OH NO, me!

One of these went home “Justified”.

I say Hooray God. Before I was born again of the Spirit, I had no strength to stay away from my boss, a married man. Talk about sexual sin! Yikes. I think sexual sin is the strongest sin there is to try to overcome, and I just couldn't. It was the strongest sin in my nature. I couldn't get enough of him.

One night I repented and said King David's prayer that I had memorized. "Create in my a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right spirit within me." etc. I meant it and God came inside me and stayed. My nature changed overnight, and I could stay away from my boss from then on, even when he tried to get me back.

So all this hogwash that Arminians are all "my will" is swill. The truth of our will is that God's will turned my will into His. Now we have the same will.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Again, the Gospel is not about going to heaven because of the cross, but being able to live a meaningful life because of the cross. How is it that a nomad like Abraham worried about this issue, when highly educated 21st century denizens do not. Prolly coz they had less distractions, then, distraction like cable TV and Starbucks. Note how Paul targets the Stoics and the Epicureans of the Areopagus on Mars Hill.

If the gospel was not about the cross - what was the point of Christ's death? LOL

I can have a "meaningful life" in a million things not related to the atonement at all. Why was Abraham concerned about God at all? Because Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundations of the world.

Besides, don't you think Abraham's distractions were a little more primal than cable TV and Starbucks? I rather like living in a world were someone else makes my clothes, grows my food and assembles my "horseless carriage". Yet I've done my part in society fighting wars and taking care of disabled people living in group homes.

 

[The Righterzpen]

There's a difference between willing and choosing? Or one can exist without the other?

No choice is made from one who isn't willing.

They can say no to His intervention. That's the role man's will can play; man is not passive in justification and salvation.

Yet one who's truly been raised doesn't say no. Man is passive in justification; since those who were justified were justified from the foundations of the world. Man is also passive in the spiritual resurrection from death to life. Man is not passive in his response to salvation; but his response comes after the action of God.

Ok? And what does "grace evealed by Christ" mean? And I'd submit that knowledge is what it's all about. We hear first. We respond by believing and being justified secondly.

"Grace revealed by Christ" could have multiple manifestations based on the circumstances of the person it's being revealed to. In its most fundamental sense; it is the recognition of the reality of God when someone is raised from death to life. That "knowing the reality of God" is supernatural enlightenment of the soul which may or may not be accompanied by even knowledge of written Scripture. Abraham didn't have Bible verses to tell him about Jesus. He received in a parable understanding of the promise to come.

Again, having been atoned for from the foundations of the world; Abraham's justification was established before he believed.

It's not either/or; it's both/and

Here you didn't read what I'd written very carefully. I never said it was "either or". I said one was a result of the other. Justification and being raised to spiritual life is the "horse". The individual responding to that resurrection is the "cart". Don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[Wordkeeper]

If the gospel was not about the cross - what was the point of Christ's death? LOL

I can have a "meaningful life" in a million things not related to the atonement at all. Why was Abraham concerned about God at all? Because Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundations of the world.

Besides, don't you think Abraham's distractions were a little more primal than cable TV and Starbucks? I rather like living in a world were someone else makes my clothes, grows my food and assembles my "horseless carriage". Yet I've done my part in society fighting wars and taking care of disabled people living in group homes.

The cross was about creating a rest, a new humanity that could be in God's presence because only the pure can see God. Believers were foreigners in the existing humanity, they confessed it and God was pleased to be called their God, because they didn't settle and He planned a new humanity for them, where they could abide/reside, and be fulfilled. Men are not like animals: we have a noble side. We deserve a noble purpose. Abraham was promised that purpose: completing Creation. All of Creation waits in eager expectation, for the full revelation, of the sons of God.

Hebrews 11
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: a The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin b(offering) for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I was hinting that all the OT heroes were not concerned about the afterlife (they never though about it till after the exile to Babylon, where the Assyrians did so worry; till date there is no halakhah doctrine of afterlife in Judaism). Could you please set aside the anachronistic reading glasses for a while, and consider that the issues of Scripture were a bit different?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

View attachment 258530

You can post a dozen of those down to me if you like.

 

[Grip Docility]

I say Hooray God. Before I was born again of the Spirit, I had no strength to stay away from my boss, a married man. Talk about sexual sin! Yikes. I think sexual sin is the strongest sin there is to try to overcome, and I just couldn't. It was the strongest sin in my nature. I couldn't get enough of him.

One night I repented and said King David's prayer that I had memorized. "Create in my a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right spirit within me." etc. I meant it and God came inside me and stayed. My nature changed overnight, and I could stay away from my boss from then on, even when he tried to get me back.

So all this hogwash that Arminians are all "my will" is swill. The truth of our will is that God's will turned my will into His. Now we have the same will.

You spoke from an open heart, here, and I understand where you are coming from more clearly when you speak. I’m thankful to Jesus Christ that He anchors your soul to His steadfast ways that you rejoice in Him for and have obtained peace in your life through.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are confusing justification with sanctification.

Not at all friend. Just because a person has been justified (made right with God and counted as being righteous) doesn’t mean he can’t later be made wrong with God and declared unrighteous.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oscarr... correct me if I’m wrong...

BNR32FAN... Oscarr isn’t admonishing or saying you are way off target... but He’s reassuring you that Christ has fully justified you and you are fully SAVED. He’s reassuring you that Sanctification is a process that God does... over time, as a result of Faith in Him that is brought Faith to Faith by Him.

In other words... Ditch the John 15 idea, keep the Love and trust that God, now, has you grasped, you’re not grasping God.

In other words... Enjoy your Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4... AKA Jesus)

Stop fearing being thrown into the fire! Perfect Love casts out ALL fear and Sibling in Him... God is Perfect Love.

My mere opinion.

Sanctification is a process that God does thru our cooperation. If not then in John 15:2 the branches who are in Christ would not be cut off from the vine for failing to bear fruit and in John 15:6 it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone to fail to abide in Christ. Why would Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide if sanctification is an automatic result of justification? In both verse 2 and verse 6 the branches are believers who are in Christ. In verse 2 Jesus specifically says they are “in Me” in verse 6 a person cannot fail to abide in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with.

 

[Grip Docility]

Sanctification is a process that God does thru our cooperation. If not then in John 15:2 the branches who are in Christ would not be cut off from the vine for failing to bear fruit and in John 15:6 it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone to fail to abide in Christ. Why would Jesus warm His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide if sanctification is an automatic result of justification? In both verse 2 and verse 6 the branches are believers who are in Christ. In verse 2 Jesus specifically says they are “in Me” in verse 6 a person cannot fail to abide in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with.

Brother, I Love you in Jesus Christ. I agree to disagree with you.

IMO Justification is God Saving Sinners.

Sanctification is God spending a lifetime to teach those Saved Sinners how to Love....

1 Thessalonians 3:12

 

[BNR32FAN]

Brother, I Love you in Jesus Christ. I agree to disagree with you.

IMO Justification is God Saving Sinners.

Sanctification is God spending a lifetime to teach those Saved Sinners how to Love....

1 Thessalonians 3:12

How can you believe that without contradicting the verses I just quoted? You can’t just dismiss this message from Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sanctification is a process that God does thru our cooperation. If not then in John 15:2 the branches who are in Christ would not be cut off from the vine for failing to bear fruit and in John 15:6 it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone to fail to abide in Christ. Why would Jesus warm His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide if sanctification is an automatic result of justification? In both verse 2 and verse 6 the branches are believers who are in Christ. In verse 2 Jesus specifically says they are “in Me” in verse 6 a person cannot fail to abide in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with.

I agree, except I do believe sanctification is back to back with justification. Justification is the cleansing of all your past sins and looks backward. Sanctification is setting us apart for good works, and looks forward. Now whether one calls the "process" sanctification or glorification is semantics.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree, except I do believe sanctification is back to back with justification. Justification is the cleansing of all your past sins and looks backward. Sanctification is setting us apart for good works, and looks forward. Now whether one calls the "process" sanctification or glorification is semantics.

My understanding is that glorification is the completed process of sanctification when we are finally made to be like Christ. I personally do not believe we can achieve glorification in this world.

 

[Grip Docility]

How can you believe that without contradicting the verses I just quoted? You can’t just dismiss this message from Christ.

The cursed fig tree is the context.

Romans 11 is imperative to read. We agree to disagree on this matter.

Justification means Justified.

 

[bcbsr]

Not at all friend. Just because a person has been justified (made right with God and counted as being righteous) doesn’t mean he can’t later be made wrong with God and declared unrighteous.

And how exactly can that happen given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and the fact that Jesus indicated that the issue of salvation is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ as he said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24?

 

[bcbsr]

He definitely says that bearing fruit and abiding in Him is absolutely required for salvation.

"required for salvation" or "indicative of the saved"? Salvation by faith in works, or salvation by faith in Christ alone, apart from works?

 

[Wordkeeper]

My understanding is that glorification is the completed process of sanctification when we are finally made to be like Christ. I personally do not believe we can achieve glorification in this world.

We pick up our crosses everyday, and are resurrected /glorified everyday. Picking up a cross is risking our lives, to making a fool of ourselves and being subjected to ridicule or worse, by claiming to be able to heal, or do other signs, to show our message to come out of Egypt is from God.

John 3
1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

Christ asked the Father to glorify Him and His followers. It was needed.

John 17
22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[Wordkeeper]

And how exactly can that happen given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and the fact that Jesus indicated that the issue of salvation is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ as he said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24?

When a person stops serving mammon it doesn't mean he has started serving God. It could be he had become sure that Egypt was a bad place and cried out for rescue. He has yet to decide if following God is a better option. He can even ask for terms of peace (extend the deadline) if he has counted the cost and does not have enough strength to make it to the finish. If he does, God will continue to feed him bread from heaven, more signs and wonders, reinforcement to free him from the last chains that hold him back, just as baptism into signs and wonders, spiritual food, drowned the main enemies of freedom in the breakout attempt. Joshua counted the cost and switched. It took him to God's side. Boom! Sinless. Ditto Peter.

Psalms 106
11The waters covered their adversaries;
not one of them survived.

 

[bcbsr]

When a person stops serving mammon it doesn't mean he has started serving God. It could be he had become sure that Egypt was a bad place and cried out for rescue. He has yet to decide if following God is a better option. He can even ask for terms of peace (extend the deadline) if he has counted the cost and does not have enough strength to make it to the finish. If he does, God will continue to feed him bread from heaven, more signs and wonders, reinforcement to free him from the last chains that hold him back, just as baptism into signs and wonders, spiritual food, drowned the main enemies of freedom in the breakout attempt. Joshua counted the cost and switched. It took him to God's side. Boom! Sinless. Ditto Peter.

Psalms 106
11The waters covered their adversaries;
not one of them survived.

You're talking about people who don't have saving faith and as such have not been born of God. Those of us who have saving faith have eternal life and have been born of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You're talking about people who don't have saving faith and as such have not been born of God. Those of us who have saving faith have eternal life and have been born of God.

Can you show me an example of a person who has saving faith in Scripture?