Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Grip Docility]

God is not being put to the test, we are.

Faith healing and the like all say a person isn’t righteous enough or with enough faith if they don’t experience x or y.

I’m not a fan of that rhetoric.

As for tests... 1 Peter 1:6-7 exalts that Faith (In Jesus Christ) is the most precious thing we can have... so, I’m good for that, idea.

 

[Wordkeeper]

None of this happens outside of the working of God though.

That was why God continued to perform signs and wonders for Israel, feed "heavenly bread" to them, even though they had been rescued out of Egypt. You can take a man out of Egypt, but taking Egypt out of a man is even more difficult. But the text says that although they ate the same spiritual food, and drank the same spiritual drink, as Joshua, they never benefited from it, never let the seed take root, never were born from above and with these people God was not pleased and their bones were scattered the wilderness.

Sure it was God who worked through Moses, because Christ said it was God who gave them heavenly bread, not Moses, but Moses himself had to first come out of Egypt, be disgusted with mammon, in order to be a blessing to the world, the Old Testament Gospel .

Hebrews 11
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

(Reproach of Christ is the heavenly feeding, food from the Rock, but then, you already knew that, didn't you) .

 

[fhansen]

I believe we can have assurance according to 1 John 3:18-23. The test is, ask yourself if your prayers are answered, because that will reveal whether you have a personal relationship with God and abide in Him.

Answered prayers are good. But for myself the best proof is change in me, demonstrated by fruit. The better I love, especially, the more I know God's working in me. While I think a high level of assurance is called for I object to an absolute certainty in light of human weakness, limitations, sin, etc. God is perfectly trustworthy and true while we're the wildcard in it all.

 

[Grip Docility]

Answered prayers are good. But for myself the best proof is change in me, demonstrated by fruit. The better I love, especially, the more I know God's working in me. While I think a high level of assurance is called for I object to an absolute certainty in light of human weakness, limitations, sin, etc. God is perfectly trustworthy and true while we're the wildcard in it all.

While You and I view salvational assurance differently... your words about Love, humanity and the utter trustworthiness Of God are anchored to all of scripture and are positive towards the Christian soul.

 

[Phil W]

I understand what you are getting at Phil, but this idea that you can be a perfect likeness of Christ is not biblical. He was the only begotten Son. To believe that you would have to remove most of the New Testament.

Hardly.
If we are reborn of God's seed are we not also sons of God?
Jesus isn't ashamed to call us brethren, you know. (Heb 2:11)
I hope you don't think the "new creature" is the same as the old creature. (2 Cor 5:17)

It is written..."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12)
And..."For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Rom 8:14)

Nobody is equal to Christ, and to claim that you are is blasphemy. I'm sorry but that's the truth. This was a heresy which was debated by the church early on, and found false. Nobody can be weighed in the balances with Jesus, the Jews and Christians have been saying that for thousands of years now.

"Equal to Christ" is kind of a misnomer.
Wasn't He made "equal to man" by His birth and death? Suffering all the things we endure on earth? Including temptation, anger, tiredness, hunger, and deprivation?
To claim an unlikeness to Christ seems worthy of a second death.
The scale others have "weighed" the proposition with didn't include us being new creatures.

Nobody will ever pray to me or thank me for escapes from sin, but we can have all that Jesus was privy to by our faith and obedience to God.

 

[Phil W]

Mercy, Faith, Love, Hope and the like are our imparted blessings. Carnal perfection doesn’t come until the seed genuinely dies!

Thank God for making a way for us to be Spiritual men instead of carnal men.[/QUOTE]
It is written..."4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:4-9)
The "seed" was killed in Romans 6:4.

Paul even says he would have to leave this world to be free of sin!

Scripture. please.

If God wanted robots, we were a failed creation! Love desires sincerity above “perfection”.

God wants folks to love Him above all else...of our own free will.
Where is the "sincerity" in on-going sin?

We are in the Son... Who is our Head... thus the Son Of Man is our Head. We are the BOC!

And as there is no sin in Christ, by necessity we can't have sin in us.

His Head is the Father, thus He is God.
We are not God.

Ok, agreed...so what is this in reference to?

Correct, Sin is our fault.
Thank God Perfect Love casts out all fear!

Yes, PERFECT love.
Which sins manifest love?

 

[The Righterzpen]

That was why God continued to perform signs and wonders for Israel, feed "heavenly bread" to them, even though they had been rescued out of Egypt. You can take a man out of Egypt, but taking Egypt out of a man is even more difficult. But the text says that although they ate the same spiritual food, and drank the same spiritual drink, as Joshua, they never benefited from it, never let the seed take root, never were born from above and with these people God was not pleased and their bones were scattered the wilderness.

Sure it was God who worked through Moses, because Christ said it was God who gave them heavenly bread, not Moses, but Moses himself had to first come out of Egypt, be disgusted with mammon, in order to be a blessing to the world, the Old Testament Gospel .

Hebrews 11
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

(Reproach of Christ is the heavenly feeding, food from the Rock, but then, you already knew that, didn't you) .

What does this have to do with God's sovereignly working redemption in someone's life? He's the author and finisher of our faith. It's the Spirit of God that compels us to obedience; not whether or not we've successfully removed enough of "Egypt" from our lives.

 

[Phil W]

I see.
This is literally calling Grace a license to sin! It is unmerited favor offered to sinners! It is not Christs promotion of Sin!

I call grace the mercy of God.
And by His mercy we have been handed everything we need to remain faithfully obedient to Him.
Others use grace as excuse to sin.

 

[mdamon0501]

Nobody is saying that the regenerate, born again believer, who has recieved the Holy Spirit as a Gift from God is the same as they were before it being recieved. This is precisely why in multiple passages of the scripture the evidences of the Holy Spirit are listed and described.

Our Principle disagreement is the totality of those evidences. Jesus himself said that his Father must "prune" branches in order that they may bear more fruit. If the bone was perfect from the moment of its grafting, then for what reason is the Father pruning it? Similarly, dead branches are cut off (those professing but showing no evidence of Saving Faith)

This is the reason for the metaphors of vines, and harvests, and growth, and children, and maturity, and leaven, and milk, and solid food etc. It is not lump sum, it is a regeneration which takes place over time, and one which cannot ever attain perfection, as Christ has already been perfected.

To claim to be sinless is to claim glory which the Father has reserved only for the Son.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank God for making a way for us to be Spiritual men instead of carnal men.

It is written..."4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:4-9)
The "seed" was killed in Romans 6:4.

You’re reading it wrong... IMO

Scripture. please.

1 Corinthians 5:9-11

The Proud read this like a Pharisee.... (Luke 18:11)

The Humble understand the Matthew 23 of this matter. (Luke 18:13)

God wants folks to love Him above all else...of our own free will.

True

Where is the "sincerity" in on-going sin?

Perhaps this question would best be asked to men that boldly call God a liar. (1 Jn 1:8 Cross References (27 Verses))

And as there is no sin in Christ, by necessity we can't have sin in us.

John wrote what he wrote for the very reason that is being manifested.

1 Jn 1:8 Cross References (27 Verses)

Ok, agreed...so what is this in reference to?

To say one is sinless in the flesh is to say one IS God.

Yes, PERFECT love.
Which sins manifest love?

1 Peter 4:8 is the correct doctrine.

IMO, Focusing on sin and being carnally righteous is the similitude of this Revelation 12:10 ; Isaiah 14:14 ; Ezekiel 28:14-17

 

[Grip Docility]

I call grace the mercy of God.
And by His mercy we have been handed everything we need to remain faithfully obedient to Him.
Others use grace as excuse to sin.

I beg God that this will always be me, before Him! Luke 18:13

 

[Grip Docility]

Hardly.
If we are reborn of God's seed are we not also sons of God?
Jesus isn't ashamed to call us brethren, you know. (Heb 2:11)
I hope you don't think the "new creature" is the same as the old creature. (2 Cor 5:17)

It is written..."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12)
And..."For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Rom 8:14)


"Equal to Christ" is kind of a misnomer.
Wasn't He made "equal to man" by His birth and death? Suffering all the things we endure on earth? Including temptation, anger, tiredness, hunger, and deprivation?
To claim an unlikeness to Christ seems worthy of a second death.
The scale others have "weighed" the proposition with didn't include us being new creatures.

Nobody will ever pray to me or thank me for escapes from sin, but we can have all that Jesus was privy to by our faith and obedience to God.

Philippians 2 is being ignored here.

Equal to Christ? No man will ever be fit to untie His Sandals!

The Son of Man and Son of God is God the Son and God the Man!

Worthy of second Death? Isaiah 14:14!

 

[fhansen]

Ephesians 2:8-10 ; Romans 4:1-6 ; Luke 5:32 ; Matt 9:13 Cross References (37 Verses)

It seems pretty simple to me.

Philippians 4:19 ; Exodus 14:14

Rather than list verses I'll summarize some that I'm sure you know. We can be believers who've tasted of the heavenly fruit but later turned back away from God, branches grafted in but later cut off. We can be those who cried Lord, Lord...; we might be goats who thought they were sheep but did nothing for "the least of these", such as feeding the hungry or clothing the naked. Maybe we aren't "those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and imortality, eternal life". Will we "invest" our talents? Will we have been vigilant, keeping oil in our lamps, will we strive, as Paul did, will we work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Or will we simply ignore or revise such passages that serve to warn us to walk the profession? Man's will is always involved.

 

[Phil W]

You’re reading it wrong... IMO

Which one?
Rom 6:4 or Rom 8:4-?

1 Corinthians 5:9-11

How does that insinuate that we must leave this world to be free from sin?
Especially when Rom 6:7 says baptism frees us from sin?

The Proud read this like a Pharisee.... (Luke 18:11)
The Humble understand the Matthew 23 of this matter. (Luke 18:13)

Which one kept doing the sins?

Perhaps this question would best be asked to men that boldly call God a liar. (1 Jn 1:8 Cross References (27 Verses))
John wrote what he wrote for the very reason that is being manifested.
1 Jn 1:8 Cross References (27 Verses)

Men who still commit sin cannot say they have no sin. They are walking in darkness and not in the light.
We have a choice in which environment we walk.
Those who walk in the light, in God, can say they have no sin...as there is no sin in God.

To say one is sinless in the flesh is to say one IS God.

Thank God we can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh!

1 Peter 4:8 is the correct doctrine.

That doesn't answer the question.
Which sins manifest love?

IMO, Focusing on sin and being carnally righteous is the similitude of this Revelation 12:10 ; Isaiah 14:14 ; Ezekiel 28:14-17

You can't be carnal and righteous at the same time.
It is written.."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

You seem to really love the term "carnally righteous".
Who makes the decisions in your life?
Your skin or your mind?

 

[Phil W]

Philippians 2 is being ignored here.
Equal to Christ? No man will ever be fit to untie His Sandals!
The Son of Man and Son of God is God the Son and God the Man!
Worthy of second Death? Isaiah 14:14!

Freedom from sin, and brotherhood with Christ is available to all men.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Faith healing and the like all say a person isn’t righteous enough or with enough faith if they don’t experience x or y.

I’m not a fan of that rhetoric.

As for tests... 1 Peter 1:6-7 exalts that Faith (In Jesus Christ) is the most precious thing we can have... so, I’m good for that, idea.

No one would like it if it puts them in a bad light. On the other hand, having the assurance it brings is awesome.

 

[def]

I'm not sure whether you actually read my posts which explain my position.
I believe in justification by faith and sanctification by works.

What about justification by His grace, by works, and by His blood?

Sanctification by works of faith would be more precise.

 

[def]

Hardly.
If we are reborn of God's seed are we not also sons of God?

Not necessary, only those who follow the leading of the Holy Spirit are called sons of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

What does this have to do with God's sovereignly working redemption in someone's life? He's the author and finisher of our faith. It's the Spirit of God that compels us to obedience; not whether or not we've successfully removed enough of "Egypt" from our lives.

You can't show me any situation where God compels a loyal believer to obedience. I can show you where God feeds heavenly bread to all who come out of Egypt (indicated by confessing that serving it is worthless) and yet there were those who tasted spiritual food and drink (seen great works) fell away and were not able to repent, meta noia, be born again.

Luke 10:13
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes

Deuteronomy 8:14
then your heart will become proud, and you will forget the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Deuteronomy 10:21
He is your praise and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome wonders your eyes have seen.

Deuteronomy 32:18
You ignored the Rock who brought you forth; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Psalm 78:11
They forgot what He had done, the wonders He had shown them.

Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.

Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.

 

[def]

You can't show me any situation where God compels a loyal believer to obedience. I can show you where God feeds all who come out of Egypt (indicated by confessing that serving it is worthless) and eclectic those who have tasted spiritual food and drink (great works) to repent, meta noia, be born again.

God told Moses and his men to enter and take the promised land. They did not obey, and spent 40 years in the wilderness.