Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[Hammster]

Anyone who thinks that they are free to act as they choose is simply lying to themselves.

Really? So if I believe that the new heart God gives me allows me to love and follow Him freely, I’m lying to myself?

 

[Shimokita]

Fair enough.

But it also makes your point irrelevant.

Oh its relevant friend. You have never met a Christian who encouraged others to sin because of the perceived lack of consequences?

 

[Hammster]

Oh its relevant friend. You have never met a Christian who encouraged others to sin because of the perceived lack of consequences?

If I did, I would be hard-pressed to say that they are a Christian.

 

[Shimokita]

If I did, I would be hard-pressed to say that they are a Christian.

I see. How about this Christian?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

 

[Acts2:38]

It can be refuted because context is ignored.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

Incorrect. It cannot be refuted as you are ignoring the very context of scripture I have given you.

I agree with John 10:27-28.

Yes, NO ONE can snatch them out of His hand. The problem you are not seeing though is that YOU YOURSELF can LEAVE FROM His hand.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Please tell me how I am out of context with this.They were enlightened. They had tasted the heavenly gift. They had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

Why then would it delve into saying "if they fall...etc etc"?

If a Christian cannot lose salvation, what is the point of even inserting that into scripture?

What was the point of Paul chastising the Galatians, warning them about those who were saved, being "removed from the gospel"? (chapter 1)

Can you be accursed and still be saved speaking of a different gospel?

How do you explain away Demas, who was brother (a christian) and then later left Christianity to be "of the world"?

Why would Christ come to the seven churches and use phrases like, "To him who overcometh, I will not blot out his name from the book of life, and I will confess them before the Father" (paraphrased a little for Revelation 3:5)?

How do you explain away Hebrews 10:26-27?
How can you sit there and say I pulled that out of context?

I'm really sorry to say, what I pulled from scripture is not out of context. It is painfully so crystal clear, Ray Charles could see it. =)

In any case, if you cannot be budged from your position in light of this evidence, we could just agree to disagree.

Take care then.

 

[Hammster]

I see. How about this Christian?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

I’d say he’s a Christian.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, NO ONE can snatch them out of His hand. The problem you are not seeing though is that YOU YOURSELF can LEAVE FROM His hand.

You aren’t reading the whole thing. He said they will never perish AND no one will snatch them out of His hand.

 

[Hammster]

What was the point of Paul chastising the Galatians, warning them about those who were saved, being "removed from the gospel"? (chapter 1)

Can you be accursed and still be saved speaking of a different gospel?

You might want to reread that. He didn’t say that the Galatians were accursed. He said let those who preach a different gospel be accursed.

 

[Acts2:38]

You aren’t reading the whole thing. He said they will never perish AND no one will snatch them out of His hand.

No. I read it. People who are in a saved state wont perish. What happens when you sin, and continue sinning?
Hebrews 10:26-27

You might want to reread that. He didn’t say that the Galatians were accursed. He said let those who preach a different gospel be accursed.

No. I don't need to reread that. Let me put it down for you so you believe me:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel

 

[Hammster]

How do you explain away Hebrews 10:26-27?
How can you sit there and say I pulled that out of context?

Let’s look.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
— Hebrews 10:26-27

The context, if you start back in Chapter 8, is showing how the sacrifice of Christ is better than the Mosaic sacrifices. So he’s saying that if they, the Jews, reject Christ, there’s no more sacrifice.

Context.

 

[Hammster]

No. I read it. People who are in a saved state wont perish. What happens when you sin, and continue sinning?

You added to what He said. That’s not good.

 

[Hammster]

No. I don't need to reread that. Let me put it down for you so you believe me:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel

Did he say that they were now lost?

 

[Acts2:38]

Let’s look.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
— Hebrews 10:26-27

The context, if you start back in Chapter 8, is showing how the sacrifice of Christ is better than the Mosaic sacrifices. So he’s saying that if they, the Jews, reject Christ, there’s no more sacrifice.

Context.

I like that cute little wink lol.

Okay, maybe we are getting somewhere. And what happens when theres no more sacrifice friend?

Where does that place you? Still saved? or fallen? Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[Hammster]

I like that cute little wink lol.

Okay, maybe we are getting somewhere. And what happens when theres no more sacrifice friend?

Where does that place you? Still saved? or fallen? Hebrews 6:4-6

So we are now jumping to another? Synergistic sure love carpet bombing.

 

[Acts2:38]

Did he say that they were now lost?

No, but it is chastising. If they continued, they are accursed. What happens then?

What happens when you go around and teach people something that is not in the gospel, and then your time of judgement comes?

 

[Hammster]

No, but it is chastising. If they continued, they are accursed. What happens then?

What happens when you go around and teach people something that is not in the gospel, and then your time of judgement comes?

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
— Galatians 1:6-9

It doesn’t say what you are asserting. He doesn’t say that the Galatians will be accursed.

 

[def]

Once again the usual slander coming from the camp trusting in their performance to save them. As mention a multiple number of times by the salvation by faith in Christ alone camp, no we're not saying that grace is a license to sin. Rather we're saying that have been saved by faith, a person is born of God such that, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Thus there doesn't actually exist anyone born of God who has a sinful behavior of which you slanderous accuse us of promoting.

However I would like to point out to you that Paul says that slanderers will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 6:10) Maybe that should be of some concern to you. Or do you believe your soteriology gives you a license to sin?

How do you view the events of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5)?

 

[Shimokita]

I’d say he’s a Christian.

But hardly.

 

[bcbsr]

How do you view the events of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5)?

They claimed to do more for the Lord than what they actually did (as if that's unusual among the Christian community!) and so the Lord took them out of the game and put them on the bench. Ironically I think Peter himself was partly at fault for failing to following the Lord's instruction to regulate donations to be a private matter. (Mt 6:4) The result of making donations public was it invoked envy which led to them boasting about doing more for the Lord than what they actually did. It's not the first time the Eleven made a bad administrative decision.

 

[def]

They claimed to do more for the Lord than what they actually did (as if that's unusual among the Christian community!) and so the Lord took them out of the game and put them on the bench. Ironically I think Peter himself was partly at fault for failing to following the Lord's instruction to regulate donations to be a private matter. (Mt 6:4) The result of making donations public was it invoked envy which led to them boasting about doing more for the Lord than what they actually did. It's not the first time the Eleven made a bad administrative decision.

The bottom line: Ananias and Sapphira were believers and they sinned against God, they died, and the Bible says: so that their souls can be saved for the day of the Lord, keeping God promised, 'they never perish'.