Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[Hammster]

It's good that you heed scripture.
Now we should all heed ALL of scripture.
John 15:5-6

Amazing how anyone could get around that one.
When Jesus speaks....
We should all listen.

Do you know the context of that. Do you know what happened prior to Him saying that which would lead Him to make that statement?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Do you know the context of that. Do you know what happened prior to Him saying that which would lead Him to make that statement?

No.
Tell me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I know of no verse that says we can not be obedient. I also no of none that state our salvation is dependent upon our salvation.

Here's one:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[JLB777]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Do you believe a person can be saved without obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?



JLB

 

[Albion]

Rewards are for believers,,,whatever they may be.
The N.T. refers to salvation as the end "prize".
Mathew 24:13 JESUS says that those who hold firm till the end will be SAVED --- not receive prizes.

The Bible also says that ones good works will be rewarded. It is just that they do not count towards our getting to heaven.

But it sounds like you are taking a statement of fact and running with it; all I said is that there is a reason to perform good works even if they were NOT rewarded. That is because it is right to do that which is Godly. See? Those are still good to do, whether or not there is any personal benefit to be derived from such acts.

 

[Hammster]

No.
Tell me.

You should look for yourself. Then you won’t be in danger of taking things out of context.

 

[Hammster]

Here's one:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Thanks. That makes my point. He is showing the difference between the gospel (believe) and the law (obey).

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe a person can be saved without obeying the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?



JLB

Obeying the gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
— Galatians 1:3-5

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Bible also says that ones good works will be rewarded. It is just that they do not count towards our getting to heaven.

But it sounds like you are taking a statement of fact and running with it; all I said is that there is a reason to perform good works even if they were NOT rewarded. That is because it is right to do that which is Godly. See? Those are still good to do, whether or not there is any personal benefit to be derived from such acts.

Sorry. I misunderstood you.

I agree with the above.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You should look for yourself. Then you won’t be in danger of taking things out of context.

I don't know about context maybe...
So could YOU please tell me what it says just before John 15:1-6 that could put these verses into context for me and perhaps change what they seem to say.

 

[JacksBratt]

No, I don’t think so. When sins are forgiven, they are forgiven totally. But, it is possible that person returns to sin. And then it doesn’t really matter if old sin was forgiven, when there is new.

In Post # 3, Dave L gives one of the most logical answers for our finite human minds.

Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else. So I live in harmony with the Commandments according to my new nature.

Anyone who has got to a point in their life where they understand that they are a sinner and can do nothing in their feeble human power, to save them from this state, which is punishable by death... and called on Jesus, to save them.... They are saved.

Jesus said so.

Would it not be a bait and switch, to then say "well, Ya, I did say that but now I want you to do this and that"?

Works are evidence of changed heart. A heart where the Holy Spirit resides.

There are so many different levels of complications in the lives of all humans.
Some have trouble just getting up and looking for a job. Some cannot break from lying, thieving, corruption as it is so ingrained in them.
Others, life is a cake walk...

However, Christ forgives anyone who asks. From there you start a journey as a baby Christian. Some progress to great accomplishments.. Others never stop crawling and stumbling.

All are saved.

I pity those that think that they must continually work at their salvation.

Sure........it should be our desire and daily goal of being more like Christ.. But, life gets in the way and we fail.

There are also those staunch Christians.. doing this and doing that... go go go .. yet they are the most bullish, grouchy, demanding and unforgiving souls... BUT... still saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

I know the story. What I’m asking is for evidence that Noah would have been in that group had he not built the Ark.

Hebrews 11:7 shows that the purpose of building of the ark was in order for his house to be saved.

You cannot explain how/why Noah's house would have been saved anyway even if had he been disobedient to God.

Genesis 6:22; Genesis 7:1 Noah did righteousness is why his house was saved. Again, you cannot show one verse that says God will save the impenitent unrighteous.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Thanks. That makes my point. He is showing the difference between the gospel (believe) and the law (obey).

Ah. So every time I OBEY God, I'm following THE LAW...I guess you mean the Mosaic Law.

I don't follow the Mosaic Law. I'm under grace.

Some versions say BELIEVE instead of OBEY.
What would you reply to THOSE?

Not that it makes any difference.

Those who believe OBEY
Those who do NOT believe do NOT obey since they do not trust God.

You have an interesting way of interpreting the bible verses. You make them mean what YOU want them to mean.

This is known as eisegesis....
I believe in exegesis.

I do hope you exegete the passages just b efore
John 15:1-6 so I could properly understand what SEEMS TO ME to be perfectly clear in Jesus' warning.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know about context maybe...
So could YOU please tell me what it says just before John 15:1-6 that could put these verses into context for me and perhaps change what they seem to say.

You do have a Bible, correct? Start in John 13.

 

[Hammster]

I guess you mean the Mosaic Law.

No.

 

[Hammster]

Hebrews 11:7 shows that the purpose of building of the ark was in order for his house to be saved.

You cannot explain how/why Noah's house would have been saved anyway even if had he been disobedient to God.

Genesis 6:22; Genesis 7:1 Noah did righteousness is why his house was saved. Again, you cannot show one verse that says God will save the impenitent unrighteous.

You are correct. I cannot explain what would happen had he not obeyed. And neither can you because it’s not in scripture.

 

[Concord1968]

Ah. So every time I OBEY God, I'm following THE LAW...I guess you mean the Mosaic Law.

I don't follow the Mosaic Law. I'm under grace.

Some versions say BELIEVE instead of OBEY.
What would you reply to THOSE?

Not that it makes any difference.

Those who believe OBEY
Those who do NOT believe do NOT obey since they do not trust God.

You have an interesting way of interpreting the bible verses. You make them mean what YOU want them to mean.

This is known as eisegesis....
I believe in exegesis.

I do hope you exegete the passages just b efore
John 15:1-6 so I could properly understand what SEEMS TO ME to be perfectly clear in Jesus' warning.

Christ's commands in the New Testament are Law as well.

 

[GodsGrace101]

In Post # 3, Dave L gives one of the most logical answers for our finite human minds.



Anyone who has got to a point in their life where they understand that they are a sinner and can do nothing in their feeble human power, to save them from this state, which is punishable by death... and called on Jesus, to save them.... They are saved.

Jesus said so.

Would it not be a bait and switch, to then say "well, Ya, I did say that but now I want you to do this and that"?

Works are evidence of changed heart. A heart where the Holy Spirit resides.

There are so many different levels of complications in the lives of all humans.
Some have trouble just getting up and looking for a job. Some cannot break from lying, thieving, corruption as it is so ingrained in them.
Others, life is a cake walk...

However, Christ forgives anyone who asks. From there you start a journey as a baby Christian. Some progress to great accomplishments.. Others never stop crawling and stumbling.

All are saved.

I pity those that think that they must continually work at their salvation.

Sure........it should be our desire and daily goal of being more like Christ.. But, life gets in the way and we fail.

There are also those staunch Christians.. doing this and doing that... go go go .. yet they are the most bullish, grouchy, demanding and unforgiving souls... BUT... still saved.

You're right of course.
Even those that stumble all the time will be saved IF they are stumbling while on their way to the narrow gate.

The problem is that some will say that they could live AS THEY WANT TO and STILL be saved.

What should we say to these persons?
I hear this a lot of these forums.

 

[JacksBratt]

We cannot pay for the debt of sin but we must obey the New Commandment. Anyone who thinks that they are free to act as they choose is simply lying to themselves.

And just what does believing in Him entail? We must have actions or works which show our belief.

You are right.. those that think it's a license to sin... are not truly understanding ... or... are not saved.

When we accept Christ, there is a change in our heart. Some may start off in a very desperate place. Their change may be way different than someone who is simple law abiding citizen of this earth, who follows the laws of their area, is kind, forgiving and serves where needed, even before they are saved. A change here may be less noticeable...

And, the person who starts off in miserable state of life and heart... may not even seem to be changed... but they are still trying.. Others... turn their whole life around and do great strides of change.

It is not for us humans to judge another human....

We do works because we are changed... not to maintain our salvation

All our works will be judged while in heaven... not judge to see if we qualify for heaven.

 

[JacksBratt]

You're right of course.
Even those that stumble all the time will be saved IF they are stumbling while on their way to the narrow gate.

The problem is that some will say that they could live AS THEY WANT TO and STILL be saved.

What should we say to these persons?
I hear this a lot of these forums.

GodsGrace101, I respect your opinion.

You and I will not agree on this one simple point.

We are not "on our way" to the narrow gate. We were, before we were saved. Once we chose Christ.. we are through the narrow gate.

Salvation is not a journey. Growing as a Christian.... is.

I know your view is different.