Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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GodsGrace101

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If you were adopted into a family... and they loved you as much as Christ loves us... would you continually have to do dishes, sweep floors, cook meals... to be considered part of the family?

I hope not..

Anyone who accepts Christ and who He is... and that they are a sinner and Christ died for them... enters into God's family.

There are good family members... and those family members that don't do much except try to be home on time for supper.. Doesn't make them any less a family member.

However... there are those that are told that they can be family members.... but reject the invite....
The above is not what Jesus taught.
He taught that we ARE to do things:
Mathew 25:34-46

James said to be a DOER of the word and not only a hearer of the word.
James 1:22

Jesus confirmed the above by stating that wise men do as HE said.
Mathew 7:24....

I think I prefer to listen to Jesus than the ideas some Christians come up with. I mean the teachers...
 
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GodsGrace101

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I think the question was open ended.. maybe a bit vague...

I would have had a better understanding if you had of asked:


"Are we required to obey God to be saved"?

or., for some out there:

"Are we required to obey God to stay saved"?


Even:

"When we become saved, will we always obey God"?

It is important to try to obey God all the time. We cannot do this though...

So, telling someone that they will have to obey all the time, never sin or that they can lose their salvation... that could be scary to some and a down right turn off for others...

Then there is the "am I doing enough"?... "am I good enough"? " should I do more"?... "am I still saved"?

This is not what God wants. Nor what the bible teaches.
I agree.
The "am I doing enough" is silly and shows no understanding of our faith.

Thinking one could obey all the time shows no understanding of our nature.

My question should have been:
Are we required to obey God to stay saved....
I do believe the unrefutable answer is YES.
 
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-57

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Revelation 2
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Note, using the law of exclusion:
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The opposite of "overcometh" is to NOT overcome, thereby NOT being able to "eat of the tree of life". The writer does not really have to say, "and who doesnt overcome...etc" because that sentence automatically implied it.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Lets use the law of exclusion again:
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

So basically, those who do NOT overcome, who DO NOT keep his works unto the end, they will NOT get "power over the nations".

They will NOT rule them "with a rod of iron" and they will NOT get "the morning star".

Figurative language, but I believe we get the point. They will lose their position in salvation

Revelation 3
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Using that law of exclusion again:
If those in Sardis do NOT overcome, they will NOT be in the book of life, Christ will NOT confess them before the Father.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Law of exclusion:
If the church the Laodiceans do NOT overcome, the will NOT sit with Christ in His throne.

There is no mistaking that these people are Christians. They are those in the church, saved members of Christs body, being commended and rebuked justly so. Most of those seven churches are chastised for transgressions that Christ literally told them would account for the loss of their salvation unless they would "overcome/repent".

No one can use the excuse that these people were never saved to begin with. It's undeniable.

Thanks for all that...I was hoping to find out what the candlestick was. You said
"Take Revelation 2 and 3. It is explicitly commands churches (people who are already saved in Christ) to stop certain transgressions or they will lose their candlestick UNLESS they repent, so on and so forth. It is so clearly written that one can lose salvation."

i was looking for the relationship of salvation equaling candlestick.
 
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Yarddog

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?
We are saved through faith but that doesn't mean that our salvation is free. It's not based on obedience to the Law but obedience to God's Spirit. If we are obedient to God's Spirit then his Spirit will begin cleansing our spirit and sinning will become abhorrent.

Stealing, killing, lying, adultery, etc... and other sins which show the lack of love for God will pass from those who believe. This is not man working for salvation but man surrendering to the Spirit which God gave us through baptism.

God has done the work and God will do the work but we must embrace God's Spirit and follow his will.

God bless.
 
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TheSeabass

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For the disobedient lost sinner to be saved he must have obedience to the will of God.

The saving of Noah's house was by God's grace but obedience to God in building the ark was necessary to receive God's grace. Noah's obedience earned nothing but a necessary condition God required in order for Noah to receive God's grace.
Lack of obedience = Noah's house lost.

Romans 9:15 God has mercy upon whom He will and obedience to God has always been the basis of receiving mercy, grace from God.

Romans 2:8 one is either obeying the truth or obeying unrighteousness
Romans 6:16 one is either serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
Romans 6:17-18 obeyed from the heart, then freed from sin/justified.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 flaming fire upon those who "obey not" the gospel of Christ. (1 Peter 4:17)
Hebrews 5:9
 
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TheSeabass

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Where does it say that in scripture?
How could Noah and his family been saved from the flood without an ark?

Are you suggesting Noah could have directly, willing disobeyed God in not building the ark yet God would save Noah's house anyway?
 
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Hammster

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How could Noah and his family been saved from the flood without an ark?

Are you suggesting Noah could have directly, willing disobeyed God in not building the ark yet God would save Noah's house anyway?
No, I’m asking where in scripture you get your support. Don’t try to wiggle out by turning this back on me.
 
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TheSeabass

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No, I’m asking where in scripture you get your support. Don’t try to wiggle out by turning this back on me.
Hebrews 11:7 says Noah prepared an ark to the saving of His house.

Hence the purpose of building the ark was to save his house. Where do you get otherwise? How will you wiggle around to get Noah and his house saved WITHOUT an ark?
 
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Hammster

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Hebrews 11:7 says Noah prepared an ark to the saving of His house.

Hence the purpose of building the ark was to save his house. Where do you get otherwise? How will you wiggle around to get Noah and his house saved WITHOUT an ark?
You made a definitive statement. I’m asking for support. If you don’t have any, it’s okay to say that it’s your opinion.

As to your question, I don’t think God would have let him not build an ark. God’s will is never thwarted by man.
 
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-57

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No, I’m asking where in scripture you get your support. Don’t try to wiggle out by turning this back on me.
He's trying to wiggle out by comparing apples to oranges.

He's trying to compare building the ark as being equal to what we must do inorder to maintain salvation...when the ark is an OT type of Christ.
 
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-57

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You made a definitive statement. I’m asking for support. If you don’t have any, it’s okay to say that it’s your opinion.

As to your question, I don’t think God would have let him not build an ark. God’s will is never thwarted by man.
Jonah found out God’s will is never thwarted by man.
 
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Albion

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I agree.
The "am I doing enough" is silly and shows no understanding of our faith.

Thinking one could obey all the time shows no understanding of our nature.

My question should have been:
Are we required to obey God to stay saved....
I do believe the unrefutable answer is YES.
If salvation were a matter of always keeping every one of the Commandments, we would not have needed a Savior at all.

The Decalogue had already been given to mankind. All that any Hebrew had to do was never violate any of them.
 
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fhansen

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I agree.
The "am I doing enough" is silly and shows no understanding of our faith.

Thinking one could obey all the time shows no understanding of our nature.

My question should have been:
Are we required to obey God to stay saved....
I do believe the unrefutable answer is YES.
I know. Can't we just get that God gives us a gift, of Himself, and then says, "Now come and follow Me, walk in my ways, abide in Me and I'll accomplish good things in you"? "As long as you're oriented towards Me and growing in my ways I can work in and with you; I can even teach and work with you when you slip back into sin as and if you then learn and repent and we continue to move you onwards and upwards in holiness overall."

And coupled with that understanding is for us to get over the notion that we have 100% security in salvation so long as we believe, or even just believed at one time in our lives, as if salvation is some one-time event. Or as if we can just know, we can predict, that we'll persevere no matter what. The truth is that we're to simply do our best with the lot and the gifts we're given and let God do the rest, including determining our eternal fate.
 
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