Unjustified Imputed Guilt

[redleghunter]

Small children are born with the sin nature....
But sin is not accounted to them personally until they come to understand what sin is and when they commit sin.

Unfortunately even small children die. Why is that?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Romans 2:4 does NOT mean that God is leading someone specific to repentance, in fact, it shows the justice of God in that it's stated in verse 3 that those who do "these things" will be punished.

Yet, the word "you" in Romans 2:4 is in the singular. Look it up on Biblehub.com or some other help tool that shows the grammatical notations. The entire passage is in the singular except where the word is "they", "them" or "sins".

So, to put it bluntly. You're wrong. It is addressing the single person who the goodness of God leads them to repentance.

IOW, not EVERYONE will be punished as you often say that we ALL deserve to go to hell... NO. Romans 2:3 says that those doing these things (greed, envy, murder, etc) as in verse 29-31 are the ones that will be punished.

Not everyone will be punished; only those who are atoned for will escape the judgement of God. Yet that does not negate the fact that even those who are atoned for should be condemned. Matter of fact, Christ was condemned in their stead. That's what the atonement was about.

you often say that we ALL deserve to go to hell... NO.

So you believe you are righteous enough for God? Is that what you are saying here?

 

[redleghunter]

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire with horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind.

Do we truly know why God took both men before they died? I don't. Therefore, we should not base a theology on what state those two men are in or if they return and later die. There is too much we don't know.

 

[redleghunter]

Please edit and ask more clearly, since I'm unsure what you mean to ask.

I quoted your statement. Which portion of your statement would you like for me to clear up?

 

[Halbhh]

Do we truly know why God took both men before they died? I don't. Therefore, we should not base a theology on what state those two men are in or if they return and later die. There is too much we don't know.

Indeed I don't base a theology on some theories. Though I'm aware of what happens with Elijah later, as recounted to us in the gospels, so that is merely fact to me.

 

[Halbhh]

I quoted your statement. Which portion of your statement would you like for me to clear up?

This:

"How do you account for a small child, baby or adult mental incompetent "having agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice?""

Perhaps if you paraphrase your question I'll be able to understand what you are asking there. You don't mean to simply ask if a child has a human brain with free will, right? I could try instead to guess at what you mean to ask, but that's not likely to be about what you meant to ask I think.

 

[redleghunter]

Very good catch on the context of all of this. I'd never realized that until you pointed it out in the way that you did!

Now if I'd just been reading that gospel, chronologically through those chapters, I never would have picked out that particular verse and said - "Wow, look you can lose your salvation!"

To come to that conclusion, took someone some real hard twisting of the Scripture!

Wow - just wow!

I also noticed that you picked up that Judas is the "son of perdition". I picked that up in the Scriptures many years ago. I'm still working on how that fits in with certain other things related to the 1st century.

I'd be interested to hear your take on that as related to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I've studied that through a bit and I know they are connected. I just haven't quite figured out how?

Jesus says to the 12 in John 6:

John 6: NASB
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.​

Which is pretty interesting. Jesus said he chose the 12. 11 later are told they were chosen to bear fruit and keep it. Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures:

John 17: NASB

9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.​

 

[The Righterzpen]

A valid point you probably won't get a straight answer to.

Yes we know this because the dead don't talk (Ephesians 2).

You raise another good point here. In the context of those being made alive unto God; obviously those dead in sin, don't talk to God. I know the Scripture says that if we hide our sin; God doesn't hear our prayers. Extrapolated from that - He obviously doesn't hear the prayers of anyone who's unrepentant.

This raises an interesting dichotomy. If God obviously sees that their prayers aren't actually to Him; who are they really praying to? I guess logically, the only other option would be Satan (idol worship). And here is where I suppose the rubber meets the road. The unregenerate, when confronted with the truth of God; what ever format that takes - even someone on the Internet quoting to them the Scripture verses they don't want to pay attention to - God is proving to them in their own condemnation their own rebellion. For they won't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.

Interestingly, in years past I always thought along the lines of "Oh those poor souls, they just can't see." But it's more profound than that, because their rebellion is actively anti-God. You know I've run into atheists who at least on the surface are honest enough to say: "Well, I don't know because I don't know the Bible that well."

Whereas those who are religious, yet still unredeemed are like trying to heard cats. When they are confronted directly with Bible verses that contradict what they are saying and it's clear to even a "neutral" observer who "won the argument" so to speak. They won't ever admit it - it's like trying to nail down Jello.

At that point they do one of three things:
1. They'll personally attack you.
2. They'll refuse to engage / answer.
3. Or they'll cling tenaciously to their point like a child with their hands over their ears. (La la la - I can't hear you - you're not there.)

I tend to find people who are teachable / willing to learn are rather rare in "Christendom".

 

[redleghunter]

This:

"How do you account for a small child, baby or adult mental incompetent "having agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice?""

Perhaps if you paraphrase your question I'll be able to understand what you are asking there. You don't mean to simply ask if a child has a human brain with free will, right? I could try instead to guess at what you mean to ask, but that's not likely to be about what you meant to ask I think.

Ok I see now.

What free agency, free will and voluntary choice to love or not does a baby or adult who is not mentally competent exercise?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Jesus says to the 12 in John 6:

John 6: NASB
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.​

Which is pretty interesting. Jesus said he chose the 12. 11 later are told they were chosen to bear fruit and keep it. Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures:

John 17: NASB

9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Wow!

How often do we read the phrase "so that the Scripture would be fulfilled". And the meaning doesn't really sink in!

Then..... think about that. Jesus obviously knew (or at least knew at some point) what was up with Judas; and He faces all this, with a profound security to let the plan unfold. It doesn't seem to me that Jesus is "mad" at Judas for this (although I think in some realm of the justice of God; He must be, because He says on several occasions that He reserves His right to pass judgement. Which ultimately was for the sake of the salvation plan!

Wow - that's deep!

 

[redleghunter]

You raise another good point here. In the context of those being made alive unto God; obviously those dead in sin, don't talk to God. I know the Scripture says that if we hide our sin; God doesn't hear our prayers. Extrapolated from that - He obviously doesn't hear the prayers of anyone who's unrepentant.

The interesting part of Ephesians 2 I highlight below:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

The portion with larger text font is the point I think we are both making here. God spiritually 'quickens' us from the spiritually dead state. We don't appeal to Him to quicken us.

 

[redleghunter]

This raises an interesting dichotomy. If God obviously sees that their prayers aren't actually to Him; who are they really praying to? I guess logically, the only other option would be Satan (idol worship). And here is where I suppose the rubber meets the road. The unregenerate, when confronted with the truth of God; what ever format that takes - even someone on the Internet quoting to them the Scripture verses they don't want to pay attention to - God is proving to them in their own condemnation their own rebellion. For they won't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.

I believe God hears all prayers. I think the distinction is this:

John 15: NASB

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.​

 

[redleghunter]

Wow!

How often do we read the phrase "so that the Scripture would be fulfilled". And the meaning doesn't really sink in!

Then..... think about that. Jesus obviously knew (or at least knew at some point) what was up with Judas; and He faces all this, with a profound security to let the plan unfold. It doesn't seem to me that Jesus is "mad" at Judas for this (although I think in some realm of the justice of God; He must be, because He says on several occasions that He reserves His right to pass judgement. Which ultimately was for the sake of the salvation plan!

Wow - that's deep!

And yet Judas operated out of his own choice to do what he did.

 

[The Righterzpen]

The interesting part of Ephesians 2 I highlight below:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

The portion with larger text font is the point I think we are both making here. God spiritually 'quickens' us from the spiritually dead state. We don't appeal to Him to quicken us.

Agreed! I think the result of the quickening is appealing to God for redemption because now being "awake" and truly seeing the need for it!

 

[Halbhh]

Ok I see now.

What free agency, free will and voluntary choice to love or not does a baby or adult who is not mentally competent exercise?

For a mentally handicapped adult: various, individual levels. God will judge anyone fairly, taking account of their circumstances. Is that what you are asking about? I'm not sure.

Does a baby have free will? heh heh. Good question, as few or none remember much earlier than about 3 years old usually. Perhaps a 3 yr old is a better question in a way, because we can sorta answer: I remember voluntarily choosing to go onto the ice with a sense I was vaguely warned not to (or so it seems in memory), and I chose to do so anyway because I could see my parents nearby and that seemed to me to make it safe enough, and I fell through, and they rescued me as I expected. Now, it's hard to know if I added anything to the memory unconsciously. It is correct I felt I was not supposed to go on the ice, or is that instead an added feeling my mind put into the memory retroactively later in time? I don't know. We aren't held to account to an adult level though in sin when we don't yet have the full agency of an adult, most would agree. For instance, when a 5 year old shoots their sibling with a gun, we don't put the 5 yr old on trial for murder or even manslaughter. We know that they didn't fully comprehend their actions as an adult normally would. Maybe instead you mean to ask about the capacity to love others?

 

[The Righterzpen]

And yet Judas operated out of his own choice to do what he did.

What an inditement against "free will"!

And still, the thing I always found interesting about Judas is that he returns the money (I've betrayed the blood of an innocent man.) and then he kills himself!

Godly sorrow works repentance unto Salvation, but the sorrow of this world works death.

I wonder what Judas was really sorry for? (Don't think the Scripture ever tells us?) Interesting though - very interesting!

 

[The Righterzpen]

So I do agree, but that doesn't take away the fact that it's those that follow the law that will make it to heaven...those that act upon the words of God and build their house upon THE ROCK.

So which comes first the chicken or the egg?

Do you follow the law to get to God, or do you follow the law because God got to you?

I don't believe any of the above helps your case.
Verse 13, for example, tells the reader to enter through the strait gate....God does not say to wait until HE does something...the person must ENTER, take an action, and go thru the right gate.

Yet if He hasn't quickened a person and opened their eyes, they aint ever going to find the strait gate!

I can honestly say that I know only God's love.
I've never had any fear of Him...except for a holy and respectful fear for God Almightly in that I feel very small compared to Him...but not fear as I think you mean it.

How can you know God's love and not believe you are worthy of His wrath? How does that fact escape you? What are you saved from?

 

[redleghunter]

For a mentally handicapped adult: various, individual levels. God will judge anyone fairly, taking account of their circumstances. Is that what you are asking about? I'm not sure.

Does a baby have free will? heh heh. Good question, as few or none remember much earlier than about 3 years old usually. Perhaps a 3 yr old is a better question in a way, because we can sorta answer: I remember voluntarily choosing to go onto the ice with a sense I was vaguely warned not to (or so it seems in memory), and I chose to do so anyway because I could see my parents nearby and that seemed to me to make it safe enough, and I fell through, and they rescued me as I expected. Now, it's hard to know if I added anything to the memory unconsciously. It is correct I felt I was not supposed to go on the ice, or is that instead an added feeling my mind put into the memory retroactively later in time? I don't know. We aren't held to account to an adult level though in sin when we don't yet have the full agency of an adult, most would agree. For instance, when a 5 year old shoots their sibling with a gun, we don't put the 5 yr old on trial for murder or even manslaughter. We know that they didn't fully comprehend their actions as an adult normally would.

I think the point I was leading to is there is no difference between how one is saved whether competent or incompetent. We are saved by God's Grace.

A baby or even unborn baby or mentally handicapped adult in most cases cannot comprehend Law and Grace. Does that mean they get a special way of obtaining reconciliation with God? No they are saved just as we are by God's Grace. None of our works save us. God initiates the call to salvation. It's by Grace alone we are saved.

Yet some babies do unfortunately die. I asked why do they if Adam's sin is not imputed to them? They die because the wages of sin is death. We all die whether at conception or a long elderly life. We do because of Adam's disobedience.

Yet....."But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)

 

[The Righterzpen]

@redleghunter

Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?

 

[redleghunter]

@redleghunter

Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?

Sorry was pressed for time and wanted to look up a few things before responding. I will get back to this.