Argument for God's existence.

[gaara4158]

He doesn’t understand that there’s a difference between a disbelief in something and believing something isn’t true.

It’s something you learn in your first logic class.

There’s a lot he doesn’t understand, and what’s worse, he doesn’t want to. He’d rather stay in his bubble where he knows better than everyone.

 

[createdtoworship]

He doesn’t understand that there’s a difference between a disbelief in something and believing something isn’t true.

It’s something you learn in your first logic class.

so you believe God exists? If not they you don't believe he exists. It's called the logical principle of non contradiction. It's what you learn in your first logics class. Say you got pulled over for a speeding ticket for 35 in a 25 school zone. And you said, officer I am unsure (agnostic) I was speeding. He says, I clocked you at 35. Then you say, I am unsure (agnostic) of the speed. The officer says the sign posted over there says 25. And he writes you a ticket. See even though you were unsure, you still broke the law. So when you are unsure of Gods existence, He for one, calls that foolish. Secondly, He still charges you with unbelief. Even if you were unsure. See not to believe is to be an unbeliever, regardless if you actually don't NOT believe in God.

 

[createdtoworship]

There’s a lot he doesn’t understand, and what’s worse, he doesn’t want to. He’d rather stay in his bubble where he knows better than everyone.

I would love to learn something, anything. But nothing to be learned here thats for sure. Wisdom is solely found in God the Bible says. I should say rather that wisdom begins in God. If you take God out of the picture, all you have is knowledge, you have no wisdom.

 

[Skreeper]

I made a thread that answers your question, you can reply there.

Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

I've read a bit of your thread. It made me question if there is even an ounce of humanity left in you.

Eternal punishment for finite crimes is never justified.

 

[gaara4158]

I would love to learn something, anything. But nothing to be learned here thats for sure. Wisdom is solely found in God the Bible says. I should say rather that wisdom begins in God. If you take God out of the picture, all you have is knowledge, you have no wisdom.

The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing.

 

[HitchSlap]

so you believe God exists? If not they you don't believe he exists. It's called the logical principle of non contradiction. It's what you learn in your first logics class. Say you got pulled over for a speeding ticket for 35 in a 25 school zone. And you said, officer I am unsure (agnostic) I was speeding. He says, I clocked you at 35. Then you say, I am unsure (agnostic) of the speed. The officer says the sign posted over there says 25. And he writes you a ticket. See even though you were unsure, you still broke the law. So when you are unsure of Gods existence, He for one, calls that foolish. Secondly, He still charges you with unbelief. Even if you were unsure. See not to believe is to be an unbeliever, regardless if you actually don't NOT believe in God.

Incoherent babble.

 

[createdtoworship]

I've read a bit of your thread. It made me question if there is even an ounce of humanity left in you.

Eternal punishment for finite crimes is never justified.

coming from someone who does not believe in objective morality, is their really something called objective "humanity." You self refute yourself. Careful. If God can be absolutely evil for creating eternal hell, when absolute evil cannot exist, it self refutes. This violates the rule of noncontradiction.

Atheist claim: "There are no absolutes." If this is true the statement becomes false Because it is making an absolute claim. It self refutes.

Atheist claim: "There is no truth." If it is true, the statement becomes false. It self refutes, because it is relaying the truth that truth does not exist.

 

[Tom 1]

What does it mean to be made by itself? That seems incoherent since a thing would have to exist already in order to do any creating. It sounds like you’re saying all things must have been made. But then that should apply to your god as well, and it runs us into an infinite regress. If you want to say your god is the exception to this rule, then there’s no reason the universe itself can’t be that exception too.

I don't see it can be, as the universe is subject to entropy, so it is changing from one state to another, with some degredation involved, so it must have had some beginning point for that process from one state to another to exist. Infinite regression makes no difference to that, neither do multiverses. Things that decay are involved in a process from some initial point to some later point, unless there is some eternal bubbling chaos as the Greeks though that things just periodically pop out of for some unknown reason. The bible teaches that God is eternal and unchanging, although it doesn't explain what that means as far as I understand it. He is called the beginning and the end, the same yesterday as tomorrow and so on, the 'I am' as simply existing in some way that isn't subject to the things we are subject to. You can't apply those same ideas to something that can be observed to change over time.

 

[gaara4158]

I don't see it can be, as the universe is subject to entropy, so it is changing from one state to another, with some degredation involved, so it must have had some beginning point for that process from one state to another to exist. Infinite regression makes no difference to that, neither do multiverses. Things that decay are involved in a process from some initial point to some later point, unless there is some eternal bubbling chaos as the Greeks though that things just periodically pop out of for some unknown reason. The bible teaches that God is eternal and unchanging, although it doesn't explain what that means as far as I understand it. He is called the beginning and the end, the same yesterday as tomorrow and so on, the 'I am' as simply existing in some way that isn't subject to the things we are subject to. You can't apply those same ideas to something that can be observed to change over time.

The universe is subject to entropy? That’s not something that’s known scientifically at this time. Where did you get that idea? As far as the general scientific consensus is concerned, there are too many unknowns about the Universe as a whole to determine whether or not entropy applies to it.

 

[Tom 1]

The universe is subject to entropy? That’s not something that’s known scientifically at this time. Where did you get that idea? As far as the general scientific consensus is concerned, there are too many unknowns about the Universe as a whole to determine whether or not entropy applies to it.

Hmm maybe that’s the case, strictly speaking. But it is changing, has changed, will continue to change. The idea of an eventual heat death is still currently popular, isn’t it? And the steady state and similar ideas not? I don’t see how something changeable can be said to be eternal, unless some underlying part of it is, but what would that be?

 

[Tom 1]

As far as the general scientific consensus is concerned, there are too many unknowns about the Universe as a whole to determine whether or not entropy applies to it.

Do you have something you can link to that fills that idea out? The little I’ve read about it, in relation to other things, is that entropy is the most accepted theory linked to the forward movement of time.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't see it can be, as the universe is subject to entropy, so it is changing from one state to another, with some degredation involved, so it must have had some beginning point for that process from one state to another to exist. Infinite regression makes no difference to that, neither do multiverses. Things that decay are involved in a process from some initial point to some later point, unless there is some eternal bubbling chaos as the Greeks though that things just periodically pop out of for some unknown reason. The bible teaches that God is eternal and unchanging, although it doesn't explain what that means as far as I understand it. He is called the beginning and the end, the same yesterday as tomorrow and so on, the 'I am' as simply existing in some way that isn't subject to the things we are subject to. You can't apply those same ideas to something that can be observed to change over time.

time accelerates mass (general relativity), so if God does not have mass he is not subject to time. souls don't have mass either, so they are not subject to time. They will exist forever, it's the destination that we must figure out.

 

[gaara4158]

Do you have something you can link up that fills that idea out? The little I’ve read about it, in relation to other things, is that entropy is the most accepted theory linked to the forward movement of time.

Hmm maybe that’s the case, strictly speaking. But it is changing, has changed, will continue to change. The idea of an eventual heat death is still currently popular, isn’t it? And the steady state and similar ideas not? I don’t see how something changeable can be said to be eternal, unless some underlying part of it is, but what would that be?

Well basically there are two big mysteries that would need to be solved in order to say that entropy (more specifically, the second law of thermodynamics) applies to the universe as a whole. First, it would have to be shown that the known universe is a closed system, and that isn’t known yet. Second, A Theory of time would need to be confirmed as opposed to B Theory, and that’s not solved yet either.

I couldn’t find much in the way of scholarly articles in reference to this specific question (although it shows up on Quora a lot), but I’ll keep looking for you when I have more time.

 

[Tom 1]

Well basically there are two big mysteries that would need to be solved in order to say that entropy (more specifically, the second law of thermodynamics) applies to the universe as a whole. First, it would have to be shown that the known universe is a closed system, and that isn’t known yet. Second, A Theory of time would need to be confirmed as opposed to B Theory, and that’s not solved yet either.

I couldn’t find much in the way of scholarly articles in reference to this specific question (although it shows up on Quora a lot), but I’ll keep looking for you when I have more time.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Tom 1]

Well basically there are two big mysteries that would need to be solved in order to say that entropy (more specifically, the second law of thermodynamics) applies to the universe as a whole. First, it would have to be shown that the known universe is a closed system, and that isn’t known yet. Second, A Theory of time would need to be confirmed as opposed to B Theory, and that’s not solved yet either.

I couldn’t find much in the way of scholarly articles in reference to this specific question (although it shows up on Quora a lot), but I’ll keep looking for you when I have more time.

I'll take a look on Quora.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

so you believe God exists?

No

If not then you don't believe he exists.

Yes.

But it’s not, as you’ve claimed, equal to me saying that I believe a god doesn’t exist. You don’t seem to understand that.

It's something you learn in your first Logic class.

So when you are unsure of Gods existence, He for one, calls that foolish.

If you’re talking about Psalms again, I’ve already said that passage wouldn’t apply to me. And I don’t know why I would care what the Bible says, since I don’t believe in the existence of the Christian god.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well basically there are two big mysteries that would need to be solved in order to say that entropy (more specifically, the second law of thermodynamics) applies to the universe as a whole. First, it would have to be shown that the known universe is a closed system, and that isn’t known yet. Second, A Theory of time would need to be confirmed as opposed to B Theory, and that’s not solved yet either.

I couldn’t find much in the way of scholarly articles in reference to this specific question (although it shows up on Quora a lot), but I’ll keep looking for you when I have more time.

so far black holes are the only thing we know if the universe that violates the second law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide another example. That is like saying the laws of physics don't apply in the universe. Only in special situations to they not apply (quantum).

 

[gaara4158]

so far black holes are the only thing we know if the universe that violates the second law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide another example. That is like saying the laws of physics don't apply in the universe. Only in special situations to they not apply (quantum).

The fact that there are situations in which they do not apply is enough to stop us from jumping to the conclusion that the universe as a whole is subject to entropy in our ignorance.

 

[createdtoworship]

The fact that there are situations in which they do not apply is enough to stop us from jumping to the conclusion that the universe as a whole is subject to entropy in our ignorance.

the comment was "the universe is subject to entropy." and that is a true statement. I am sure he was not talking about quantum.

 

[gaara4158]

the comment was "the universe is subject to entropy." and that is a true statement. I am sure he was not talking about quantum.

Entropy applies in closed systems. Is the universe a closed system? Quantum particles cast doubt on the case that closed systems are even possible. So if you can demonstrate that the second law of thermodynamics applies to the universe as a whole then you’ll win a Nobel prize.