Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

[Grip Docility]

When did the Original Jewish Church, the Apostles, the 3000 on Pentecost, etc.. CEASE being National Israel?

They never did. There’s no Jew nor Gentile in the BOC... but Israel never ceased to be a lineage.

You're using stipulations and ideas to supersede clearly stated facts.

Not going to fly.

 

[parousia70]

They never did.

So, you claim that The Church and Israel were the same thing?

I agree.

 

[Grip Docility]

So, you claim that The Church and Israel were the same thing?

I agree.

Because you put words in my mouth and twist my clear point of disagreement into that idea, I can see how you get what you get out of scripture.

 

[parousia70]

The exceptions you speak of are obvious. Those are clearly understood exceptions found in the Pentateuch. We’ve seen this with Rehab and so forth.

You’re playing a gotcha game and grasping at verses to supersede clearly written facts.

You haven’t suffered the trials Israel of a physical lineage has suffered. You seem to miss the historically obvious point that Israel has never enjoyed peace as a people and nation for any extended period of time.

I have presented Clearly written facts... and your response is "well yes but...."

Not gonna fly.

God never did, has, or will, distinguish His people by physical DNA.

His Chosen People have only ever been distinguished by the two chromosomes of spiritual DNA -- faith and obedience.

 

[parousia70]

Because you put words in my mouth and twist my clear point of disagreement into that idea, I can see how you get what you get out of scripture.

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, The 12 Apostles, the 3000 converts on Pentecost and every single Church member before the Stoning of Stephen and freeing of the gospel to the gentiles were National Israel AND the Church SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Do you disagree?

 

[Grip Docility]

I have presented Clearly written facts... and your response is "well yes but...."

Not gonna fly.

God never did, has, or will, distinguish His people by physical DNA.

His Chosen People have only ever been distinguished by the two chromosomes of spiritual DNA -- faith and obedience.

No, my points we’re clear. We’re quibbling now.

If you're now saying descendants of Jacob aren’t Israel... I’m going to have to disagree over and over.

Theres this thing called lineage that tracks the bloodline of Christ. There are indeed Gentiles grafted in, but the point of fact is that it’s overtly obvious Jacob became Israel and his descendants were eventually enslaved in Egypt through Joseph’s story and what came after... the story doesn’t stop there.

I get that you believe you’re going to keep this game of ping pong up, and it will go somewhere, but really, We’re not going to see eye to eye.

It’s okay to agree to disagree.

Still only ONE Jesus...

So... round and round we go about Israel not being real, even though it is.

 

[Grip Docility]

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, The 12 Apostles, the 3000 converts on Pentecost and every single Church member before the Stoning of Stephen and freeing of the gospel to the gentiles were National Israel AND the Church SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Do you disagree?

As long as you keep them separated and don’t place the BOC blended in with Israel until our entrance into the Heavenly Jerusalem... I’m cool.

Go Supersessional on me and we have a point of disagreement.

 

[parousia70]

No, my points we’re clear. We’re quibbling now.

If you're now saying descendants of Jacob aren’t Israel... I’m going to have to disagree over and over.

.

Is not the ACT of Physical Circumcision a Covenant requirement?

Show me ONE genetic son of Abraham/Jacob that God includes in His Covenanted Israel apart from being physically circumcised.

Just one will do.

Faith And Obedience ALONE are God's Covenant Conditions.
Always have been. Always Will be.

Abrahamic/Jacobian DNA will get you NOWHERE in the covenant apart from faith and Obedience.

You know this to be true... why strain so hard against it?

 

[Grip Docility]

Is not the ACT of Physical Circumcision a Covenant requirement?

Show me ONE genetic son of Abraham/Jacob that God includes in His Covenanted Israel who has not been physically circumcised.

Just one will do.

Faith And Obedience ALONE are God's Covenant Conditions.
Always have been. Always Will be.

Abrahamic/Jacobian DNA will get you NOWHERE in the covenant apart from faith and Obedience.

You know this to be true... why strain so hard against it?

No straining required. Show me a descendant of Israel that wasn’t circumcised per the tradition, in scripture.

 

[mister rogers]

From his website the-highway.com, looks like Anthony Hoekema's amillenialism sees a future mass conversion of Jews. I wonder what texts he sees this in.
"As regards future eschatology, amillennialism affirms the following:

1. The “signs of the times” have both present and future relevance. Amillennialists believe that the return of Christ will be preceded by certain signs: for example, the preaching of the gospel to all the nations, the conversion of the fullness of Israel, the great apostasy, the great tribulation and the coming of the Antichrist. These signs, however, must not be thought of as referring exclusively to the time just preceding Christ’s return. They have been present in some sense from the very beginning of the Christian era2 and are present now.’3This means that we must always be ready for the Lord’s return and that we may never in our thoughts push the return of Christ off into the far-distant future."

 

[parousia70]

No straining required. Show me a descendant of Israel that wasn’t circumcised per the tradition, in scripture.

Apparently God knew of them:
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

How can God say to a physical descendent of Abraham/Jacob that he has broken his covenant if, as you claim, DNA is the ONLY requirement of the covenant?

Not circumcised? Not Israel.
DNA was a useless argument against it.

Still is.


It is abundantly clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

DNA is irrelevant.

 

[Grip Docility]

Apparently God knew of them:
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

How can God say to a physical descendent of Abraham/Jacob that he has broken his covenant if, as you claim, DNA is the ONLY requirement of the covenant?

Not circumcised? Not Israel.
DNA was a useless argument against it.

Still is.

Do you honestly think the parents of any of Israel’s offspring didn’t circumcise their babies with that in place.

That only strengthens my position.

I’ve acknowledged the concessions you made. I still don’t see what this back and forth proves?

At this point... we can see the disagreement clearly. Just because I don’t see your point, doesn’t make yours wrong or you any less my sibling in Jesus. Just because you don’t see my point doesn’t make me wrong or any less your sibling in Jesus.

So we don’t agree... big deal. I’ve enjoyed our spirited debate. Well played.

 

[parousia70]

Do you honestly think the parents of any of Israel’s offspring didn’t circumcise their babies with that in place.

That only strengthens my position.

Why did they?
Mere Tradition? or actual covenant requirement?

Are you making the preposterous claim that 100% of national genetic Israel obeyed 100% of God’s covenant commands 100% of the time?
And none were ever cut off from the covenant at any time for their disobedience?

If God cut off even one genetic son of Abraham from the covenant for his disobedience, then your position is totally annihilated.

 

[Grip Docility]

Why did they?
Mere Tradition? or actual covenant requirement?

Are you making the preposterous claim that 100% of national genetic Israel obeyed 100% of God’s covenant commands 100% of the time?

No, I’m making the case that Biblical National descendants of Jacob wouldn’t dare have their children Pariah to a covenant that started back with Abraham.
So.... Both.

We’re talking about a far deeper reverence and genuine fear than exists today. Did they still mess up in their lives? Sure... but that’s part of the human condition. After all only One Man/God ever did it all perfect.

Note God didn’t only call the circumcised out of Egypt?

Why do you think that was? Probably because the Hebrew Jews held to their traditions.

Jews following Tradition isn’t a new thing!

 

[parousia70]

No, I’m making the case that Biblical National descendants of Jacob wouldn’t dare have their children Pariah to a covenant that started back with Abraham.
So.... Both.

We’re talking about a far deeper reverence and genuine fear than exists today. Did they still mess up in their lives? Sure... but that’s part of the human condition. After all only One Man/God ever did it all perfect.

Note God didn’t only call the circumcised out of Egypt?

Why do you think that was? Probably because the Hebrew Jews held to their traditions.

Jews following Tradition isn’t a new thing!

It seems you continue to confuse tradition with covenant commands.

My college friends have a tradition of going camping together every summer.

It’s not a command to be part of our group to go camping every summer.

I’ll attempt a page out of your own playbook to see if we can’t get on the same page:
Is physical Circumcision a requirement for a Genetic son of Abraham/Jacob to be considered by God to be a member of His covenanted National Israel?

Yes or No.

 

[parousia70]

I’ve acknowledged the concessions you made. I still don’t see what this back and forth proves?

It provides a vehicle for our readers who are seekers and may not have a solid position to have some detailed arguments from different sides to ponder so they can make a better informed decision for themselves.

At this point... we can see the disagreement clearly. Just because I don’t see your point, doesn’t make yours wrong or you any less my sibling in Jesus. Just because you don’t see my point doesn’t make me wrong or any less your sibling in Jesus.

So we don’t agree... big deal. I’ve enjoyed our spirited debate. Well played.

Likewise!
I’ve enjoyed the scriptural workout!

 

[parousia70]

*

 

[Grip Docility]

It seems you continue to confuse tradition with covenant commands.

My college friends have a tradition of going camping together every summer.

It’s not a command to be part of our group to go camping every summer.

I’ll attempt a page out of your own playbook to see if we can’t get on the same page:
Is physical Circumcision a requirement for a Genetic son of Abraham/Jacob to be considered by God to be a member of His covenanted National Israel?

Yes or No.

Yes. My posited line of argument remains. If your college was in ancient times and God had established that not going on that camp out would be setting you up for failure... and your parents had absolute say, I’m certain you would be forced to go...

In Jesus’ lineage, God looked at the heart, too. Look at Tamar’s first 2 husbands and what God did while tending the physical establishment of His human temple... (speculatively, they were circumcised). I acknowledge, speculation at this point, as it isn’t written if they were cut or not.

Post 1st coming... no. Circumcision not required.

 

[Grip Docility]

*

 

[Grip Docility]

From his website the-highway.com, looks like Anthony Hoekema's amillenialism sees a future mass conversion of Jews. I wonder what texts he sees this in.
"As regards future eschatology, amillennialism affirms the following:

1. The “signs of the times” have both present and future relevance. Amillennialists believe that the return of Christ will be preceded by certain signs: for example, the preaching of the gospel to all the nations, the conversion of the fullness of Israel, the great apostasy, the great tribulation and the coming of the Antichrist. These signs, however, must not be thought of as referring exclusively to the time just preceding Christ’s return. They have been present in some sense from the very beginning of the Christian era2 and are present now.’3This means that we must always be ready for the Lord’s return and that we may never in our thoughts push the return of Christ off into the far-distant future."

The wording of this quotation you have selected is profound, honest and vague enough to not claim to have it all figured out, in a prideful way... but instead it has a very specific mark of Humility to it!

I love it!