Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

[Justified112]

People hold the Jewish nation as significant just like you mention. One reason for this, even if they know it or not, is that they think the Jewish nation never received its promised kingdom. However, we know thats not true because the book of Joshua tells us they received ALL their land promise.

No one says that they did not receive the land God promised. And if the history of Israel ended with Joshua and if the Bible never said anything more about Israel after Joshua, that would be one thing. But what the Bible goes on to say is that Israel, due to disobedience, would not be allowed to enjoy the promised land and God would judge Israel in exile. However, the Bible goes on to say that Israel would be restored back to the land and that process is being carried out in front us.

People also get confused I suppose because they think a literal Jewish nation is mentioned in the NT. It's not. It is a "spiritual" one. The church IS the kingdom that Jesus was putting in place Matthew 16:18-19 (church and kingdom are used interchangeably). "There is neither Jew nor Greek" is even more support to the "spiritual" kingdom of Israel and not a physical.

The terms "Israel" or "Jew" are never spiritualized in the Bible. Christians try to spiritualize those terms to fit an anti-Israel theology that they try to project on to the Bible, but the Bible, especially the NT treats Israel and the Church as radically separate.

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. But that is not an attempt to spiritualize "Israel." The point that Paul makes when he says that is that neither Jew nor Gentile has an advantage, nor is set at a disadvantage where access to the grace of God is concerned. It is an attempt at defining "Israel."

The Church is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom is not the Church. Matthew 16:18-19 does not use "Church" and "Kingdom" interchangeably. That is nonsense if you read the passage. He told Peter that He was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. That is not the "Church." Nowhere in the Bible is the Kingdom of Heaven equated with the Church.

We could go all night into the book of Revelation. People want to make literal what shouldnt be literal. The book is heavily riddled with symbolic talk, almost all of it complete except of course Christs return in the clouds to take everyone and the world and heavens burning with fervent heat.

We have not yet arrived at the book of Revelation. I led a study on the book of Revelation and what it describes as coming upon the earth has never happened. Symbolism is used, but you cannot just relegate that to the entire book. The book of Revelation basically covers the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period, the wrath of God and what symbolism is used points to a literal, horrific reality that is coming on the earth.

 

[Justified112]

Could it be that the prophecy of Ezekiel and the valley of dry bones concerns their return? Perhaps this is what Paul refers to in Romans 11:25-26? I understand that ALL Israel would not not necessarily mean every single one, but could it be God brought them back as part of his plan before a mass conversion? There does seem to be a growing number already of conversions to Christ.

Yes, the dry bones vision in Ezekiel 37 and the previous vision of chapter 36 both speak to the restoration of Israel to their biblical homeland.

 

[Dave L]

The Land Promises?

“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

 

[eleos1954]

Everyone amillenial I've encountered has the view that the 1000 years is symbolic of the entire Church age, and/or that it is symbolic of the those reigning with Christ from heaven, until His second coming. Hence the term post-millenial would be more fitting, being that the second coming occurs after (post) the millenium. The only sense in which amillenials see it as "no" (a-) millenium is that it is not a literal 1000 year period. But yes, postmillenialism as people hear the term these days automatically assumes the idea of a literal 1000 year golden age before the second coming.

The 1,000 years begins when Christ returns and the 1,000 years takes place in heaven. Now whether or not that is 1,000 years according to "earth time" .... dunno because all the saved is in eternity. I'm thinking ... however .... it will be "earth time" .... because the GWTJ takes place after the 1,000 years and although the earth lies desolate for the 1,000 years .... the 2nd resurrection has to take place. That is .... the earth hasn't been destroyed yet.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Problem with spiritualizing texts like that, is they are thrown open to men's imaginations and conjecture.
Nope all the prophecies concerning Christ's first Coming were fulfilled literally, so there is no reason to believe it will be different with His 2nd Coming.

The Bible is a Spiritual book, authored by a Spiritual being-Yahweh, written to Spiritual brings. The entire Bible Text is Spiritual. Set all of this stuff aside and seek Jesus and let Him show you the truth. These forums are only causing you strife. Again, just lay it all down and begin letting Father guide you through His word. Let the Bible speak.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Christ's Kingdom is not of this present world system, but will be physical in the regeneration of this earth when Christ Jesus comes to reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.
(I agree all forms of preterism is false).

I have question for you(I'm not Preterist, futurist, or anything), is all of Revelation Future?

 

[GingerBeer]

I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?

Yes, I have many thoughts regarding the state called Israel established in 1948 AD.

• First it is not the Israel of the old testament
• Second worldly nations like the state of Israel come and go without the last judgement and first resurrection happening and that applies to the state of Israel too.
• Third Christian evangelism directed towards Jewish people is illegal in the state of Israel.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?

Hi if you cut and paste all the events and isolate them like jig saw pieces the right combination will produce a cohesive timeline and a clear image and will not be contradictory.
Here are a few of the contradictions I see in the amil view.

Zech 14 refers to Jesus 1st advent. If you take the time to read this chapter it describes the day the LORD is king over all the earth. Was Jerusalem being overrun and the women ravaged and the LORD did He melt the enemies who were invading that day? The nations that are left indicates many did not make from that point on must keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. This if literal is future and supports the millennial view.

Daniel 7 describes the kingdom that covers the earth and having no end at a time when a pompous one is raised up and he is given power to persecute for a times times and half a time. If this is 3 1/2" years it is the same time that the beast and false prophet are also said to be given power to persecute that is 42 months. Both are destroyed at the brightness of the coming of the LORD. So we see Rev the armies are gathered to great battle and the blood is to the horses bridle. This again is when the LORD is king over all the earth after Armageddon. This destruction is detailed and the destruction at the end of the 1000 years is completely treated as a different event. After the 1000 years Jerusalem is surrounded and the nations who were no longer deceived are deceived once more. After the 1000 years they organize one last rebellion and fire comes down from heaven and that is it. Then the new Jerusalem comes down and the great white throne take place.

If the LORD is king over all the earth would the earth be in such a state for the last 2000 years? If the antichrist is still to come would not Israel need to be a nation and hated by the whole world? would not the Temple need to be rebuilt and the sacrifice be reinstituted for the abomination of desolation to occur in? Joel 3 describes the great day of the LORD and notes they divided the LORDs land. Do you think that the coming solution to the Palestinian problem will divide the land?

The throne of David where is it? When the kingdom comes to earth it will not end at the end of the 1000 years it will move locations. In Daniel 7 when the pompous 1 is destroyed and throne to the fire it says curiously that the rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their live prolonged for a season and a time. Who are these beasts and how long is a season and a time. If makes sense if they are demonic entities and are bound for 1000 years and then released. Note they never gain back their dominion.

The amil view isolates the kingdom of heaven and Israel being all those saved by the new covenant from national Israel having a prophetic destiny. It transfers and golden age promises to the new Jerusalem. I do not dispute that only the saved are in the kingdom of heaven. I do dispute that the prophetic theme is concluded. Luke 1 about Jesus
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear, If Zechariah 14 is the 2nd coming Jesus certainly is delivering them from their enemies and in that day the LORD is king over all the earth and they will say the LORD is one. This is the Joseph revealed to his brothers moment and life continues from that time on. They are now serving in righteousness because they believe jesus is LORD.

Lastly look at Ezekiel 36 and see it is too people who are brought back to Israel from all the nations where God scattered them. There people are accused of profaning the LORD's name in all the nations where they have been. They are promised a new heart and that God would take away their reproach from the nations. Peace is promised too that from that point on they will not bereave or be bereaved anymore. We see Israel is still the reproach of nations and they are being bereaved and bereaving others. this is future too. I have barely scratched the surface of all that is integrated but ask yoruself does the world look like it is moving towards a one world government that is antichristian and anti Israel? Are moral conditions rivaling those of the preflood world and of Sodom? Are many churches apostate? Would this be if Jesus was ruling with a rod of iron? If the temple is coming soon could that be the stage set for the abomination of desolation to occur in? The future view seems most cohesive and is tracking with reality and current events. May the unity in the gospel keep us charitable to one another even if we profusely disagree on this.

I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I understand and agree with everything you said there. That being said, I still find it quite amazing that after nearly 2 millenia and near extinction they've returned and are a nation again. There's gotta be something to that. Just can't put my finger on it.

If God led the Jewish people back into their own land and He gifted them with their own state, what exactly would be God's reasoning for allowing the persecution of Palestinian Christians? You know how God feels about His remnant. This is how the remnant in Israel are treated today as well as things that are not of God.

These are all facts and not disputable.

1) Systematic expelling of Palestinian Christians
2) Bulldozing homes of Palestinian Christians
3) Sodom existing and thriving in Tel Aviv
4) Only Jews can be a citizen of Israel as defined by the amended Law of Return. Any converted Jew to Christianity can not receive citizenship.
5) The law prohibits citizenship by family reunification between an Israeli citizen and Christian spouse. The spouse can not be a citizen.
6) Mandatory military service.
7) In and around Bethlehem, Christians have gone from being 80 percent of the population when Israel was founded in 1950, to around 12 percent today. In Israel itself, Christians have gone from some 21 percent of the Arab population to around 8 percent today. Overall, they now number just 2 percent of the Israeli population.
8) Evangelicals abandoning Palestinian Christians for the secular State of Israel.
9)Christians face land seizures, arbitrary detentions and collective punishment that are part and parcel of the Israeli occupation.

 

[crossnote]

The Bible is a Spiritual book, authored by a Spiritual being-Yahweh, written to Spiritual brings. The entire Bible Text is Spiritual. Set all of this stuff aside and seek Jesus and let Him show you the truth. These forums are only causing you strife. Again, just lay it all down and begin letting Father guide you through His word. Let the Bible speak.

LOL, I've been doing internet Forums for 23 years and have been a Christian 44 years, I'm beyond hope as far as the strife thing goes and I know the Scriptures are clothed with Incarnation, God becoming man, suffering, dying for our sins,physical bodily resurrections, real flesh and blood people, real lands, real historical people and places. Actually, it is those who over spiritualize the text, that push it's credibility into the realm of incredulous mythology.

 

[crossnote]

I have question for you(I'm not Preterist, futurist, or anything), is all of Revelation Future?

Personally I believe chapter 1 is for all ages, chapters 2-3 are directed to the then existing Churches (circa 90AD), with application for us today. Chaps 4 and on are future. 'After these things' (Rev 4:1)

 

[Calvin_1985]

Personally I believe chapter 1 is for all ages, chapters 2-3 are directed to the then existing Churches (circa 90AD), with application for us today. Chaps 4 and on are future. 'After these things' (Rev 4:1)

Ok, so if it's all future(I ask this because I genuinely want to know your answer, not arguing) then How does Chapter 12 fit into it? It's a Chapter that's obviously about Jesus Christ, so if I were to take all of Revelation as future events as Ch. 4 on, then that means that Jesus will be born into Human flesh and ascend to Gods throne for a second time?

 

[crossnote]

Ok, so if it's all future(I ask this because I genuinely want to know your answer, not arguing) then How does Chapter 12 fit into it? It's a Chapter that's obviously about Jesus Christ, so if I were to take all of Revelation as future events as Ch. 4 on, then that means that Jesus will be born into Human flesh and ascend to Gods throne for a second time?

Like to play 'Gotcha'? I was speaking in general terms. Of course Jesus had already been born (Rev 12:1-5) but that is a backdrop for what is to follow...satan's rage, war in heaven, satan's ejection, tribulation period as he goes after Israel's seed.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Like to play 'Gotcha'? I was speaking in general terms. Of course Jesus had already been born (Rev 12:1-5) but that is a backdrop for what is to follow...satan's rage, war in heaven, satan's ejection, tribulation period as he goes after Israel's seed.

Could you please not jump around the question and answer it? It's not a "gotchya" type thing. I'm trying to find out the logic behind putting the Book of Revelation into the future when an event smack dab in the middle has already taken place. If you have no answer it's fine, just answer it.

 

[crossnote]

If you have no answer it's fine, just answer it.

I did, you just didn't like my answer...

Personally I believe chapter 1 is for all ages, chapters 2-3 are directed to the then existing Churches (circa 90AD), with application for us today. Chaps 4 and on are future. 'After these things' (Rev 4:1)

Of course Jesus had already been born (Rev 12:1-5) but that is a backdrop for what is to follow...satan's rage, war in heaven, satan's ejection, tribulation period as he goes after Israel's seed.

Why don't you state your view instead of stating

(I'm not Preterist, futurist, or anything

That statement becomes a little suspect when you snap back the way you did.

 

[Acts2:38]

I understand and agree with everything you said there. That being said, I still find it quite amazing that after nearly 2 millenia and near extinction they've returned and are a nation again. There's gotta be something to that. Just can't put my finger on it.

Other peoples are the same way if attention could be directed to them.

Take the Native American Indian populations. Now THOSE were people who nearly faced extinction more so than that of the Jewish.

Now days they are on the rise, on graph shows a 39 percent increase in population over a decade ago, who knows now without looking. They also, in a way, have been granted their own "sovereign land" in a sense.

I really see no context in scripture that would state the Jewish nation to have anything to do with the book of Revelations or anything we need to worry about in NT scriptures. Nothing in the NT states anything about a physical kingdom to come.

Take comfort with this piece of scripture about that very thing:
John 18:36

I like your username by the way

 

[Acts2:38]

No one says that they did not receive the land God promised. And if the history of Israel ended with Joshua and if the Bible never said anything more about Israel after Joshua, that would be one thing. But what the Bible goes on to say is that Israel, due to disobedience, would not be allowed to enjoy the promised land and God would judge Israel in exile. However, the Bible goes on to say that Israel would be restored back to the land and that process is being carried out in front us.

Being as that I was some of the first to post here, of course no one said this.

On the other hand, there are groups out there that believe that very thing I mentioned. Don't tell me there are not when I have seen it first hand. There are groups that believe Israel didn't receive their promised land, and that that is one reason they believe Israel is to be propped up onto a pedestal.

False.

The terms "Israel" or "Jew" are never spiritualized in the Bible. Christians try to spiritualize those terms to fit an anti-Israel theology that they try to project on to the Bible, but the Bible, especially the NT treats Israel and the Church as radically separate.

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. But that is not an attempt to spiritualize "Israel." The point that Paul makes when he says that is that neither Jew nor Gentile has an advantage, nor is set at a disadvantage where access to the grace of God is concerned. It is an attempt at defining "Israel."

Im not anti Israel. They are our allies. I don't seek out their ruin. However, when I read in scripture, the Israel of today has no significance other than more souls that need Christ or continued support of brethren who are in Christ.

I have an example for you to ponder. Many believe in the "trinity". Yet not one scripture says that. Yet we know it to be true through scripture, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So people can all agree that God is in 3 persons, which we call "trinity" aka Godhead.

And so, the term spiritual israel comes to term.

I believe you need to look over Romans 9, and while your at it glance at Galatians 3, 4 and so on, with special attention to Galatians 3 and Galatians 4:5-7

There's others, but those are all that I need to point you toward. And so we move onto the next statement you made.....

The Church is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom is not the Church. Matthew 16:18-19 does not use "Church" and "Kingdom" interchangeably. That is nonsense if you read the passage. He told Peter that He was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. That is not the "Church." Nowhere in the Bible is the Kingdom of Heaven equated with the Church.

John 18:36
Matthew 16:18-19

Acts 2, the church begins. You would most likely agree without hearing you out first.

Here are some past tense verses for you to digest about the kingdom. These will indicate to you that the kingdom is already here, and that is the spiritual one, the church aka Christians.

Colossians 1:13 (please be my guest and read the verses before and after, makes no difference the outcome here)

Revelation 1:9 (since you studied this, you should know that John is talking to fellow brethren in Christ. John states he is their companion in the tribulation and in the KINGDOM and patience of Christ)

With just these two verses, I have shown you that the kingdom is here. But when you ask? In Acts 2, when the church was established (John 18:36).

So yes, church is used interchangeably with kingdom. They are one in the same.

Maybe the book of Hebrews can help you with this as well. Check it out.

We have not yet arrived at the book of Revelation. I led a study on the book of Revelation and what it describes as coming upon the earth has never happened. Symbolism is used, but you cannot just relegate that to the entire book. The book of Revelation basically covers the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period, the wrath of God and what symbolism is used points to a literal, horrific reality that is coming on the earth.

You can start another thread for this whenever. It will take me a while to untangle the knot here. So we'll just leave it at that for now.

Thanks for your thoughts though, surely those who read all of this can come to the truthful conclusion.

 

[Christian Apologist]

I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?

Amillenialism and Panmillenialism seems most biblical

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

I do not know about Mister Rogers but I like to respond to your question:

The symbolic 1,000-year kingdom started since Pentecost where Christ sent His Witnesses (Christians) to the ends of the earth with the Salvation message of the Gospel. This millennial kingdom will last until all that God had intended to be sealed in their foreheads (saved/secured) has been sealed.

If we're in the 1,000 year reign now, why is Satan not locked in Hell? Satan will be locked in Hell for the entire 1,000 so he cannot deceive the nations, and he won't be released until the 1,000 are done.

Revelation 20:1-5

Don't you know Satan is roaming the earth right now? I've met him more than 4 times. We are NOT in the 1,000 year reign.

 

[Justified112]

Being as that I was some of the first to post here, of course no one said this.

On the other hand, there are groups out there that believe that very thing I mentioned. Don't tell me there are not when I have seen it first hand. There are groups that believe Israel didn't receive their promised land, and that that is one reason they believe Israel is to be propped up onto a pedestal.

False.

When I said, "no one" I was not limiting that to people on the board, but meant those who are pro-Israel. My apologies for not making that clear. I could have done better on that.

But it is unfair to characterize those who support Israel as thinking that Israel needs to be "propped up." That is a constant smear used against us and it simply isn't true. We simply uphold the biblical position that Israel was the nation chosen by God to be a light to the world and that role will one day be realized. That is not propping Israel up.

Im not anti Israel. They are our allies. I don't seek out their ruin. However, when I read in scripture, the Israel of today has no significance other than more souls that need Christ or continued support of brethren who are in Christ.

That is not true. Israel has a significant prophetic future and even now we are witnessing Israel being restored to their land, in complete defiance to Christians whose theology says that it is not supposed to happen.

I have an example for you to ponder. Many believe in the "trinity". Yet not one scripture says that. Yet we know it to be true through scripture, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So people can all agree that God is in 3 persons, which we call "trinity" aka Godhead.

And so, the term spiritual israel comes to term.

I believe you need to look over Romans 9, and while your at it glance at Galatians 3, 4 and so on, with special attention to Galatians 3 and Galatians 4:5-7

There's others, but those are all that I need to point you toward. And so we move onto the next statement you made.....

The difference is that we can demonstrate the Trinity doctrine from the Bible. The concept of the Trinity can be actually be shown without twisting and perverting Scripture in order to do so.

"Spiritual Israel" doesn't exist in the sense that the Church is now Israel. To say that the Church is now Israel is based on some pretty sloppy exegesis. For example, Romans 9 identifies the true "Israel" as Jews who accepted the Messiah, as opposed to unbelieving Jews Paul identifies an Israel within Israel; he contrasts the Jews who accepted Jesus vs. those who do not and those who accept Jesus are the true Israelites.

Galatians 3 and 4 are not speaking to who "Israel" is. Galatians was written to combat the Judaizing heretics who were claiming that Gentiles had to convert to the Jewish religion and become physical converts to the Jewish religion (through circumcision) in addition to faith in Jesus. Paul's point was that the Gentile believers are the seed of Abraham by faith in Jesus. "Seed of Abraham" doesn't translate into "Israel." He didn't say they were Israel; he said they were the seed of Abraham by faith.

John 18:36
Matthew 16:18-19

Acts 2, the church begins. You would most likely agree without hearing you out first.

Here are some past tense verses for you to digest about the kingdom. These will indicate to you that the kingdom is already here, and that is the spiritual one, the church aka Christians.

Colossians 1:13 (please be my guest and read the verses before and after, makes no difference the outcome here)

Revelation 1:9 (since you studied this, you should know that John is talking to fellow brethren in Christ. John states he is their companion in the tribulation and in the KINGDOM and patience of Christ)

With just these two verses, I have shown you that the kingdom is here. But when you ask? In Acts 2, when the church was established (John 18:36).

So yes, church is used interchangeably with kingdom. They are one in the same.

Neither of those verses say what you claim they say. None of them say that the Church is the Kingdom. They are not one and the same. When Jesus returns, He will set up the Kingdom on earth. That is the prophetic kingdom. While we are in the spiritual realm of salvation where Jesus is King, there is a physical, prophetic Kingdom that is coming that Jesus will establish on earth.