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Featured Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mister rogers, May 4, 2019.

  1. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    This ^

    After all, Messianic scriptures were expected to have been fulfilled in one shot, by the Jewish Leaders, in Jesus’ day.

    Instead of dividing scripture properly and seeing things occur in phases, they lumped it all together and expected a conquering Messiah.

    This doesn’t erase the fact that the disciples asked this...

    So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, are You restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

    Jesus literally responds this...

    He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

    There, we have Jesus nodding to National Israel based Apostles that there will be a time their question will come to fruition!

    Then, Jesus follows with a, “but, for now” “before that time”, sort of statement...

    8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
    Acts 1:6-8 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:6-8 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

    The last statement is clearly about the coming time of the Gentiles, which Paul and Jesus confirm will have a close... (Romans 11:25 ; Luke 21:24)

    Though this is as PLAIN as day, what do we have? People lumping all Prophecy together, ignoring Scriptural timeline and becoming Eisegetic in their teachings and understandings.

    Just like Israel, part 1, the Gentiles are all saying that it’s all about them and there is no other group God will look after!

    Anyhow, Well said!

    After all, we have this text to remember...


    He said, “Do you know why I’ve come to you? I must return at once to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I leave, the prince of Greece will come. No one has the courage to support me against them except Michael, your prince. However, I will tell you what is recorded in the book of truth.
    Daniel 10:20-21 - Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 10:20-21 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

    This is pretty important because we are told Israel has an appointed Arch Angel that fights for it. This is to Daniel and National Israel!

    Makes sense, when we later read this...

    Revelation 12:7-10 and later, this (Revelation 19:17)

    Both those verses are bound to Israel, which salvation was ultimately provided to the Gentile BOC, through.

    There’s even a 12 X 12 number of Jewish Tribes listed in Revelation.

    Current western Logic... (If it disagrees with our theology, let’s spiritualize it)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Like how futurists must spiritualize "must shortly take place, for the time is near, about to be, soon, at hand, I'm coming quickly, this generation shall not pass, etc.."?
    Or are those the exceptions to your rule, and we are free to spiritualize them all away (over 100 in the NT) until they fit a futurist theology?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Seems to me the premise of your question has skewed you toward a particular answer which is causing your confusion.

    For if the people there have no genetic, religious or political link to the pre desolation Hebrew nation, (BTW, they Don't) then what?

    Rosanne Barr Moving to the modern day, man-made, Secular, Democratic nation-state of Israel does not constitute the Return of the Hebrew people to the God Delivered, Biblical Theocratic Hebrew Nation of Israel, yet if we accept the premise of your question as legitimate, (BTW, I Don't) then Rosanne moving to modern Secular Israel ABSOLUTELY constitutes the return of the Biblical Hebrews to The Biblical Theocracy of Israel.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    According to this poll thread below, that appears to be the majority view:

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Matthew 24:3
    Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be?
    and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

    Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

    What I think about the 1000yr period

    1. Before the 1000yrs
      85 vote(s)
      60.3%
    2. During the 1000yrs
      2 vote(s)
      1.4%
    3. After the 1000yrs
      28 vote(s)
      19.9%
    4. Doesn't matter to me
      26 vote(s)
      18.4%
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Preterism.

    Has Jesus returned yet?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ahh... so you ARE saying it's A-OK for Futurists to spiritualize away whatever scripture does not fit futurism unless it gets spiritualized to fit it.

    Futurists like you hold the exception to your own "don't spiritualize scripture to fit your theology" rule.

    Noted.

    Is Matthew 21:40-45 fulfilled, or are we still waiting for that to come to pass?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    No, I was knocking preterism and pointing out that Jesus hasn’t returned yet. Preterists go so far to spiritualize the return of Jesus in ... puking as I type it... 70 A.D.

    I was saying the Spiritualizing of Clearly literal Scripture isn’t okay.

    Does that clear it up?

    And, per the scripture you cited, Jesus fulfilled that scripture. Unbelieving Israel is currently being made jealous by a strange people. We are in the time of the Gentiles, currently.

    Jesus is the temple that was broken down and rebuilt. Jesus is the true “Temple of God” as He is the very Image, Glory of God

    To be even more direct, it is obvious Israel is just now beginning to re-emerge... though it was simply renamed Palestine (Philistine... by Roman mockery) and Jews remained.

    Has Jesus come yet? No. The kingdom being returned to Israel clearly is bound to the return of Christ. The response Jesus gives in Acts is kin to “No man knows the day nor the hour”.

    Futurist? Absolutely not. I just follow scripture as it reads and do my Level best by the HS to stick to what it says, vice what Preterists, Supersessionalists, Convoluted Dispensational understanding (Though some minor dispensational points are biblical) say it says.

    My point was that Jesus hasn’t returned yet. (2nd coming). A preterist is exposed the second you ask them if Jesus has already returned. Because the theology goes specifically against Jesus own words.

    Is there peace on earth? NOPE! Jesus hasn’t returned yet and we haven’t seen ALL the dead, apart from Jesus raised up from the dead yet.

    That’s Revelation. Some of Revelation has happened, because it recapped, some is happening and some is still to come at an unknown time. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    If anything the opposite is true. Futurism would more so go against Jesus' own words. According to futurists "this generation" doesn't really mean this generation and "the time is near" doesn't really mean the time is near.

    Matthew 24:34 Truly , I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

    Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I’ll ask you outright...

    Has the 2nd coming of Jesus happened yet?

    Will you answer outright?

    “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    Jesus didn’t know the day nor the hour and the Kingdom wasn’t restored to Israel.

    Jesus warned against people that claim to know the day and the hour. Are you claiming to know the day and the hour He “came”?

    Also...

    First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires, saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.” They willfully ignore this: Long ago the heavens and the earth were brought about from water and through water by the word of God. Through these waters the world of that time perished when it was flooded. But by the same word, the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, it is clear what sort of people you should be in holy conduct and godliness as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God. The heavens will be on fire and be dissolved because of it, and the elements will melt with the heat. But based on His promise, we wait for the new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
    2 Peter 3:3-13 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3:3-13 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  10. My King and Lord

    My King and Lord Member

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    If we are talking about the Israel established in 1948, it's not Israel. I find it hard to believe that God's chosen people would be the ones who deny His Son and made their own book, the Talmud which literally mocks Jesus, Mary, and many aspects of Christianity. I find it hard that he would allow his "blessed nation" to persecute the Palestinians so much, the christian population in Israel goes from 30% to 2% in just 70 years. I find it hard to believe his chosen people are the ones who vandalize the churches over there and mock Jesus. I find it hard to believe that that he would allow his Chosen People to be profiting so much off of war and even stated that if they were under attack they would unleash all their nuclear weapons. Israel is now the church. It is in us with the Holy Spirit. Christ came for all people all across the globe. I don't get why American Christians are so obsessed with Israel, yet ignore the persecution of Christians throughout the world, who by the way are the most persecuted group currently. We should be living in the present, not the future. Jesus stated that none of us knows the hour, when it comes we'll all know by the trumpet.
    Samson Option - Wikipedia
    Christians in the Holy Land feel abandoned by American evangelicals
    Study: Christian population in the Mideast is dropping rapidly
    Christians are MOST persecuted religion in the world - reveals new report
    'McJesus' Sculpture To Be Pulled From Israeli Museum After Violent Protests
    Christian leaders in Jerusalem respond to vandalism by settlers
    Attacks against Christian properties and churches by Israelis
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Maybe because all of scripture revolves around Israel. Even Revelation is written in Jewish imagery.

    How can Christianity not be interested in Israel, the birthplace of God incarnate?

    How can Christianity not see that Israel is back and going through similar struggles that it went through in scripture?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    :)
    Yeah, I feel the same way with zionist futurism......happy puking......

    Leviticus 18:
    25 ‘For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants.
    28 and the land doth not vomit you out in your defiling it, as it hath vomited out the nation which [is] before you;

    Leviticus 20:22 ‘You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them, that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out.
    =========================
    Revelation 3:15 I am seeing of you the works that neither cold you are neither boiling/zealous, owe you! cold thou were or boiling/zealous.
    16 thus that lukewarm<5513> thou are, and neither cold, neither boiling/zealous, I am being about thee to vomit thee out of the mouth of Me.

    vomit gif.gif
     
  13. My King and Lord

    My King and Lord Member

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    Jesus said to spread the gospel across all of the world Mark 16:15 We are also all one in Christ since he died for us Ephesians 2:11-22 and Galatians 3:28 If you ever read the Talmud, which jews today believe in, you'll see that the Talmud states things such as how Mary is a whore, how us gentiles are inferior animals destined to be slaves, how Jesus was a deceiver who is now boiling in hell among many other things. Many jews don't know this stuff and I don't blame them. They're just raised in a jewish household. Jesus was against the Jewish rabbis, scribes, and the strict sects that used their power. Infact Luke 13:34 Jesus says that Jerusalem kills the prophets that were sent to guide them. Also Jesus was born in the Roman province of Judea, not the Kingdom of Israel. Which is why the scribes, priest, and rabbis wanted to kill him. Because he claimed he was the messiah and the messiah is supposed to restore Israel.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And futurists spiritualize over 100-time texts... I don't puke over it but the hypocrisy is curious..

    Then I guess one must define "clearly literal"
    Is what is clearly literal to me literally clearly literal to you?

    Nope?

    When??

    Take it line by line (its only 5 verses), and give a fulfillment date for each line please... since you claim Jesus fulfilled it, and explain when and HOW Jesus fulfilled it if you can.

    Here, I'll post just the first two to make it easier for you:

    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    We'll start with these first two above.
    Since your claim is that Jesus FULFILLED these two verses already, Tell us When and How Jesus Fulfilled them?
    Take as much time as you need.

    The text says the wicked men (the 1st century Chief Priests and Pharisees, as identified in vs. 45) were to be destroyed by and at "the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" to avenge the death of His Son at their hands.

    You say this event is past and was performed by Jesus Himself.
    (I happen to agree with you!)

    Tell us When and How, please.

    Nothing in Matt 21:40-45 about the time of the gentiles. Happy to discuss that, but let's get through these 5 verses first.

    Futurist theology goes specifically against Jesus own words here:
    Revelation 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

    Futurists say No, Jesus failed to come as a thief to the 1st-century people at Sardis as he promised them He would.

    Futurists MUST spiritualize away this plain, clear, literal text to fit their theology, and as you have demonstrated, futurists (and you) give themselves a free pass on the "don't spiritualize scripture to fit your theology " rule.

    As I said, the Hypocrisy is curious. Not quite sickening, but curious.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Huh? I implied Jesus hasn’t come back yet.

    I also recognize Christ brought about great things His first Corporeal time here.

    What’s the issue?

    2 Peter 2 clears up the idea that Jesus has to return immediately. It also warns of scoffers that say He won’t return. People that fixated on the generation shall not pass verse as specifically bound to Christ’s return missed that Peter explained Jesus is allowing time to pass that many will come to Him.

    Also, the end comes to prevent all humanity from destroying itself. That’s an actual verse. That time hasn’t come yet.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  16. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Huh? God is the original “Zionist”.

    The dead are Prophesied to be raised before the earth is destroyed and evil is cast away.

    Is it futurist to believe biblical timeline? The BOC is not entered into Judgment, per Jesus in John 5:24. Yet the dead are resurrected to Judgment.

    Jesus hasn’t returned the second time yet, per scripture.

    What are you positing?

    Joel 2:27 When have God’s people not been put to shame? As of now, the infighting within Christianity, alone, puts the BOC to shame... and Israel has existed in a state of derision for millennia... no giph response required...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    You voiced a form of compassion for the Jews. That’s enough for me to feel peace on this matter with you.

    As for Bethlehem, it is part of the Biblical land boundaries promised to Israel.

    I agree that many of Israel were cruel to Jesus and many Jews today are blind to the gospel... but isn’t that the point of Romans 11:25-36
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  18. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    Full says yes. Some partials say yes as far as a judgment coming on unbelieving Israel, but no as far as the final judgment. Other partials say not yet at all. Partial preterism is a broad category. Even pre-mill can have elements of partial preterism. Big question: What do we see as already having been fulfilled, and what not yet? In some sense, every Christian is partial preterist: The prophecies of the 1st coming of the Messiah came true.
     
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  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your honest approach in being versed on all the different perspectives! I find that refreshing.

    I also appreciate your wording of the OP.

    I tend to look at peterism differently, but I totally grasp your use of it. Well explained!
     
  20. mister rogers

    mister rogers New Member

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    Matthew 24's Olivet discourse where Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled" and Revelation 1's "to show to his servants things which must soon take place" is just a tip of the iceberg of why some hold certain preterist views.
     
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