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Mary and Joseph

Der Alte

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I didn't want to start a separate thread since I'm sure this topic has been done to death, but why are Protestants so adamant on denying Mary's perpetual virginity? I honestly find it completely insulting and offensive as she is one of my own role models for my own decision to remain celibate. Plus church tradition has it pretty firmly established that she remained a virgin and that the brothers of Jesus mentioned in the Scriptures were Joseph's from a previous marriage.
Church tradition is not scripture and can be wrong. As for remaining celibate.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9
8. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
 
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MariaJLM

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Church tradition is not scripture and can be wrong. As for remaining celibate.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9
8. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Church tradition gave you your Bible as it wasn't written down until hundreds of years later. Let that sink in...
 
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Der Alte

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Church tradition gave you your Bible as it wasn't written down until hundreds of years later. Let that sink in...
The earliest NT book written was Galatians by Paul AD 48 the latest NT book written was Revelation by John, AD 95-97. The canon of the NT was set AD 382.
 
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MariaJLM

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The earliest NT book written was Galatians by Paul AD 48 the latest NT book written was Revelation by John, AD 95-97. The canon of the NT was set AD 382.

My point exactly. There wasn't even an established canon until many years later. Tradition established it, not the other way around.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Sorry, I forget where, but I once read about Jesus' parents that at the time they were betrothed Mary was about 14 years old, while Joseph was about 40.

Is this accurate? Is it what church tradition says? Does anyone here find it a little creepy?

Yes, that's creepy!

Little lesson in anthropology here:

Prior to the 20th century, people entered puberty later. We still see this in the developing world. The reason for this had to do with the food supply. Food in the western world today (especially processed food) has a lot of chemicals in it that mimic estrogen. There are also growth hormones added to the conventional food source for meat products. You eat the cow that was given growth hormones, your daughter commences puberty at 8 years old and is menstrating by the time she's 11.

I can attest to the fact that food supply plays a role here because my son (who living in the US) and most of his life has only eaten organic food; did not start puberty until he was 15. Your average human takes about 2.5 years to go through puberty.

The other difference is that people in the past ate far less meat than do most in western society today. Outside of fish; Jesus probably only ate meat on religious feast days or "special occasions" like someone's wedding.

"Delayed" onset of puberty went for both males and females. We actually see this in colonial Europe with army records. (Military records are a good source of anthropological information concerning human development.) You could join the army as a soldier at 16 years old. Yet consistently, soldiers between 16 and 21 were put in what was called "light infantry units". "Light infantry" had smaller weapons, less ammunition to carry, and uniforms that were adapted for being able to travel quickly and this was because the soldiers themselves were smaller than typical "hat company" soldiers. Why were they smaller? Because they were still growing. Technically human beings can grow till they are 21 years old. And since males' final growth spurt comes at the end of puberty (where as females do most of their growing in the beginning of puberty) the typical soldier did not reach full height until 21.

From what we can tell of anthropological study - this was also true of the Roman army. The Roman army did not keep stats on individual soldiers' ages / heigh / weights though; so what demographic information we can gather about Roman soldiers comes from graves or battle field excavations.

Now for females; the average age of menstruation before year 1900 was 17. Menstruation is the indication of the completion of puberty for girls. Once menstruation commenced, this is how families knew their daughters were "eligible" to "consummate" a marriage. If you go back and search historical records, most marriage laws "legal age of marriage" is 18. (And this "tradition" goes back centuries.)

Also, culturally and historically; males were expected to be well enough established to support a family before they were allowed to get married. This is why most men were between 20 and 25 years old before they got married.

Now it is true that marriages in the ancient near east were arranged and the partners very well could have been children when the arrangements were made. This does not mean marriages were consummated at the time of the arrangement. So given this information we can glean from anthropology; your average bride would have been between 16 and 20 years old. Your average groom between 20 and 25.

So what does this tell us about Jesus's mother Mary?

She would have been physically mature enough to bear a child; which 2000 years ago, given diet and typical human development; would not have been likely at 14 years old. So given traditional "legal" marriage ages. Mary was probably 18 or 19 years old when she gave birth to Jesus.

So what about Joseph? There's no indication from Scripture that he was married before Mary; or was there much indication that he was that much older than she was. Joseph probably was not older than 25.

So did Joseph and Mary have children together? Yes, they did. ".... and he knew her not until she brought forth her first born son and called his name Jesus." Matthew 1:25

Here we know that obviously Mary did not remain a virgin and Jesus was the oldest.

When did Joseph die?

This we can get a "ball park estimate" based on anthropology also. There are 6 children besides Jesus who are named in Scripture (4 brothers and at least 2 sisters). We know Jospeh was still alive when Jesus was 12 because Joseph is named in the passage in Luke where Jesus gets Himself lost in Jerusalem.

Now the average lapse between pregnancies was probably about 2 to 3 years. This is because children were weened at 3 years old. And consistent lactation to feed an infant is a form of "birth control". Breast milk was the major food source for a child up to 2 years old. They were weened at three because practically speaking if they made it to that age, they had a greater chance of survival. Once a child hits 5 years old, the chances of their survival to adulthood are pretty good.

So proving Mary did not have twins or miscarriages - and obviously Jospeh had to be around long enough for the last child to be conceived; this would have put Jesus most likely between 16 and 18 years old when Jospeh died. If Jesus was much older than that, then they would have been looking at arranging His marriage; but now since Joseph is dead, the responsibility to provide for the family falls on the oldest son. So here now Jesus has "instant family" and domestically speaking He would have had the experience of raising children.

So how do we know this was the case?

We can deduce this from Scripture of the "wedding in Canna". The Scripture says that Jesus's mom was "in attendance". The Greek here indicates that she was partially responsible for the wedding arrangements. This is why she says to Jesus that the groom's family has run out of wine. (The bride would have been Jesus's youngest sister.) The bride's family was responsible to provide the dowry and the groom's family paid for the wedding. The groom was responsible to set up a household for his wife and future kids. This is interesting because apparently Mary knew Jesus could perform miracles before anyone else did. This is why he tells the servants "Do what he says". And also why Jesus says to His mom "what does this have anything to do with me?" - because pretty much, once the last sister was married; Jesus's responsibly for them was over. The only family member left to "deal with" is mom; and this is why when Jesus dies; he gives her to John.

So, hope the historic / anthropological / cultural information is helpful!
 
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Strong in Him

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You often pull out the interpretation card.but nope.
One does not need to interpret plain basic information.

IS it basic information? What does the Greek say?
I would use the term "brothers and sisters" to cover step/half/adopted children.

If your wondering why im not replying to any other..well ;) its called the ignore button lol

That's rather strange considering I agree with you - but suit yourself.
 
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Strong in Him

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My point exactly. There wasn't even an established canon until many years later. Tradition established it, not the other way around.

The canon was established many years later.
You said it was written down many years later - which is not the same thing.
 
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The Righterzpen

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You also have to consider the purity aspect. Did Joseph really dare to put himself in an area God had made clean?

I didn't want to start a separate thread since I'm sure this topic has been done to death, but why are Protestants so adamant on denying Mary's perpetual virginity?

Why is the perpetual virginity of Mary so important? Does the act of having sex defile people?
 
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Mountainmike

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If your wondering why im not replying to any other..well ;) its called the ignore button lol

Ignoring the truth. Why?

You still have not answered by what authority you think you are right, and on this issue : the perpetual virgininity , why is it all prior to the reformation, the overwhelming majoriy of christians since, including all catholics and orthodox and indeed all the leading reformationists luther, calvin and zwingli hold the opposite view to you.

Clearly you are in a lonely place, and it is not as clear cut as you think. Ignoring the vast majority who disagree wont change that.
 
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Alithis

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Ignoring the truth. Why?

You still have not answered by what authority you think you are right, and on this issue : the perpetual virgininity , why is it all prior to the reformation, the overwhelming majoriy of christians since, including all catholics and orthodox and indeed all the leading reformationists luther, calvin and zwingli hold the opposite view to you.

Clearly you are in a lonely place, and it is not as clear cut as you think. Ignoring the vast majority who disagree wont change that.
Truth is not democratic .its not determined by the majority.
In fact Jesus said the way that leads to life is staight and narrow and FEW there be that find it.
To be in the majority on a wide easy road is not a place i want to be.
I encourage you to look into that history your leaning on .and see and ask .. Why is it that all you have listed played a part in murdering human beings for not submitting to thier view.. Putting people to death and saying they do the will of God ....
Jesus warned they would do so.
Dont be afraid ..l..look into the history of it.
those who have sought to elevate mary have spilled the blood of those who would not bow the knee to " them" .

No i will stand lonely rather then ever take part in that.
And worship JESUS alone and glirify none other.
 
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Alithis

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Why is the perpetual virginity of Mary so important? Does the act of having sex defile people?
.certainly it does not..
And perpetual virginity is only pushed by those who seek to elevate and venerate (it means worship) a created woman.
 
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Skittles

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May the peace of Christ be with all of you. A few comments on this topic based on some earlier posts:
1. The word "firstborn" means someone that opens the womb, not necessarily someone that leads to "second born" or "third born" etc. So, it is possible to be "firstborn" without there being additional offspring. You can see this in Exodus 13:2 and Numbers 3:12. Additionally, when Jesus was found in the temple at 12, the context suggests he is the only child of Mary & Joseph (Luke 2:41-51). In Mark 6:3 Jesus is referred to as "THE son of Mary" not "A son of Mary". So in these ways Jesus being called "firstborn" does not require there to be more children from the same parents.

2. Around the idea of Sacred Scripture referring to Jesus having brothers and sisters I'd share 3 thoughts: First, Aramaic (the language our Lord spoke as a Jew) does not have a specific word that means "brother" - the word is closer to "kin" or "relative" as is shown in Scripture a few times. Lot is Abraham's "brother" (Gen 14:14) but he is the son of Haran, Abraham's brother (Gen 11:26-28) and therefore his nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called "brother" of his uncle Laban (Gen 29:15). So language limitations can lead to a relative being referred to as "brother".
Second, people referred to as Jesus' "brothers" are later shown NOT to be his brothers. James the younger's mother was named Mary. In Matt 27:56 we see the description of the women standing beneath the cross "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons Zebedee". Mark 15:40 describes the same scene "there were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. But St. John writes (John 19:25) "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. In comparing these accounts we see that Mary the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. Matt 10:3 describes James as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean James' mother Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of Clopas AND Alphaeus - but Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person since Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek as either Alphaeus or as Clopas. So, James who is described as Jesus' "brother" is clearly not his brother. But we know James IS Christ's cousin from the second century historian Hegesippus who explains that Clopas/Alpheus was the brother of St. Joseph; Jesus' foster father.
Third, even if Jesus had brothers in the sense we use it today; it does not mean they were Mary's as they could have been children of Joseph's from an earlier marriage. As others have pointed out, tradition, while not Sacred Scripture, records a common belief that St. Joseph was an older widow who took Mary as his wife as a guardian since Mary was a consecrated/perpetual virgin - a belief held by key protestant reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and John Wesley. If you are a protestant you might want to ask yourself what insights you have gained from Sacred Scripture that escaped those individuals.

3. When we look at Luke Chapter 1 we see Gabriel's reaction to Zechariah's questioning of his news (Luke 1:18-20) to be much harsher and different than his reaction to a similar question from the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:34-37). I'd propose that this is because Zechariah asks his question out of doubt - he is a married man and God could produce a child out of his relationship with Elizabeth - similarly to how God helped Abraham and Sarah conceive Isaac. Zechariah is struck mute for his doubt. But Mary asks her question out of wonder. She knows how baby's are conceived (her very asking of the question shows that she knows how baby's are conceived). She is asking because she is a consecrated virgin who is to have "no relations with a man". Her question is born out of not understanding how she can live her natural state of life and still conceive a child - so she doesn't doubt that it will happen she just wants to know how God will work this miracle.

My post is already WAY too long so thanks to anyone who read this far - but the timing/nature of the relationship/marriage between Mary and Joseph is explored more fully in this link if anyone has interest (I'm not Joe Heschmeyer but I think he has a really interesting explanation): http://shamelesspopery.com/reading-the-advent-and-christmas-scriptures-through-jewish-eyes/
 
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Mountainmike

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Nor is truth just your opinion:

Jesus also said his church "would be one" " and the gates of hell would not prevail against it." Why do you consider our lord so impotent he cannot honour that promise, that all ( except you) in the first millenium and the reformers are misled?

So when you disagree with almost everyone else, and all in the first millenium you should listen to authority and tradition, not just your own opinion of verses.


Truth is not democratic .its not determined by the majority.
In fact Jesus said the way that leads to life is staight and narrow and FEW there be that find it.
To be in the majority on a wide easy road is not a place i want to be.
I encourage you to look into that history your leaning on .and see and ask .. Why is it that all you have listed played a part in murdering human beings for not submitting to thier view.. Putting people to death and saying they do the will of God ....
Jesus warned they would do so.
Dont be afraid ..l..look into the history of it.
those who have sought to elevate mary have spilled the blood of those who would not bow the knee to " them" .

No i will stand lonely rather then ever take part in that.
And worship JESUS alone and glirify none other.
 
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The Righterzpen

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.certainly it does not..
And perpetual virginity is only pushed by those who seek to elevate and venerate (it means worship) a created woman.

I think people get "hung up" on the concept of "purity"; which probably has more to do with their own feelings of impurity, than it has to do with someone else being holy.

Which I find it ironic that so many point to Mary? Is this because they blame Eve for the fall and Mary has to now somehow "redeem" female humanity? So now sex is the "boogie man" so Mary has to remain a virgin?

"Interesting, very interesting" Sargent Shultz - Hogan's Heros

Which in reality..... if one was to bear concern for a specific individual producing offspring the one to be "concerned" about would be Jesus. Which has wholly to do with theological difficulties adding people to the Trinity would have created, permanent presence on earth through progeny and the havoc that would have reaped on the redemption plan. After all it would have been much easier to produce a race of "the last Adam" in the flesh than to redeem a bunch of sinners who hated Him anyways! (Which none of that really has anything to do with God incarnate..... ehh... engaging the act. After all, we know God does like to create things - but that's a subject for a whole other thread!)

:doh::doh:

"Some are made eunuchs by nature, some by men, but one has made himself a eunuch for the sake of reigning in the kingdom of God. By the power of God who restrains him, let him continue in the command." Matthew 19:12

(OK now - who (besides me) is willing to tackle that verse!)

:ebil::ebil: :swoon:

Father: "Jesus, come to ME and give ME that; because if You are going to pay for their sin - Ya aint got any place else to go with it."

Jesus: "Yes Abba, most certainly there are aspects to being incarnated that have made my life..... complicated. Yet YOU have not hid anything from me of the way I was created; which I am grateful for. Be fruitful and multiply is still a glorious command even if I'm constrained from doing so by a greater task. Still, YOU give me a space to be next to YOU in. What is man that YOU are mindful of him or the son of man that YOU take care of me. THANK YOU!"

"So now I guess insecure men stick mom with their hang ups? And I can certainly attest to the fact that the other children she bore were sinners... and at times - down right brats! MY kids would have never acted like that!"

Father: "LOL - funny Jesus, really funny!"
 
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Skittles

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Any veneration of Mary really just magnifies the uniqueness and glory of our Lord. Mary is the "new Eve" - not because of hang-ups about sex (which was created by God and is therefore beautiful if entered into in the right context) but because she cooperated with God's will. Like all saints she points to the savior - she just does it in a far more special way because she had the second person of the Trinity in her womb.
 
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Mountainmike

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You really should study what others think before comment on it, you have no excuse for false witness, because for catholics all the dogma is there to see in the catechism online. Read it.

So Yet again you are completely wrong: Venerate and worship are two differen things as is a petition for intercession which is different again..

Venerate means "regard with respect" - the same word used of the old testament! It does not mean worship.

Worship is for Deity. Mary is not deity , indeed in the hail mary and echoing the words of the new testament "blessed are you amongst women" Accepting her as human, albeit the most favoured human by God, for which she is full of grace.

The fact that all generations( including those who wrote your creed and selected your newtestament) ask for her intercession, see for example anasthasius is certainly not worship!

I hope you have called her "blessed "recently. As all generations are told they will.
I suggest you ask her to petition our Lord for you. Because the OT says it is effective!

Intercession is alltotally biblical. The mother (not spouse) of a davidic king was called queen , given a throne and told that the king would "do what ever she asked". Jesus did all he could to align with Davidic kings so jews of the time would see the meaning there. We we see intercession enacted at Cana with Jesus saying "not yet" because his time had "not yet come". It has come now.

So why then do you disregard what those who decide your canon and creed believe that scripture means?when they, not you were given the power to "bind and loose" and also the power to preach.

The bible says "how can they teach if they are not sent?" So who sent you to change doctrine?.We can see in the succession who sent the ones we accept as authority!

.certainly it does not..
And perpetual virginity is only pushed by those who seek to elevate and venerate (it means worship) a created woman.
 
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Alithis

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You really should study what others think before comment on it, you have no excuse for false witness, because for catholics all the dogma is there to see in the catechism online. Read it.

So Yet again you are completely wrong: Venerate and worship are two differen things as is a petition for intercession which is different again..

Venerate means "regard with respect" - the same word used of the old testament! It does not mean worship.

Worship is for Deity. Mary is not deity , indeed in the hail mary and echoing the words of the new testament "blessed are you amongst women" Accepting her as human, albeit the most favoured human by God, for which she is full of grace.

The fact that all generations( including those who wrote your creed and selected your newtestament) ask for her intercession, see for example anasthasius is certainly not worship!

I hope you have called her "blessed "recently. As all generations are told they will.
I suggest you ask her to petition our Lord for you. Because the OT says it is effective!

Intercession is alltotally biblical. The mother (not spouse) of a davidic king was called queen , given a throne and told that the king would "do what ever she asked". Jesus did all he could to align with Davidic kings so jews of the time would see the meaning there. We we see intercession enacted at Cana with Jesus saying "not yet" because his time had "not yet come". It has come now.

So why then do you disregard what those who decide your canon and creed believe that scripture means?when they, not you were given the power to "bind and loose" and also the power to preach.

The bible says "how can they teach if they are not sent?" So who sent you to change doctrine?.We can see in the succession who sent the ones we accept as authority!
You follow your sucession..

Those who follow Jesus... Will follow Jesus.cant serve two masters. He said so.

Again and again it comes down to motive.
Those that defend such ambiguious doctrines about mary which are not stated clearly and unambiguously in scripture do so for one motive and one motive only.
They seek the glorification of a created woman ..
I will not do so but seek that Only the lord Jesus be glorified and NONE other.
None other.

That is None.
In case you missed it ;)
 
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Mountainmike

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We follow Jesus and listen to those he appointed. You should study the early church and how it was structured and doctrine that it handed down: (paradosis, now translated as tradition) Jesus did not say "write this" or "read this" he said "do this" and "teach this", and so the apostles did.

So we dont follow a guy on a forum who disagrees with 2000 years of what the church has taught and understood as the meanning of doctrine. We follow the succession Jesus appointed, the church he said would be one, that he said was the foundation of truth, that has the power to bind and loose, and the doctrine that is essentially unchanged for two millenia.


By what authority do you disagree with all that came before you?
None, except your own opinion.. stating all others are wrong.
That is a very bold place to be.

And since this conversation I suspect has nowhere else to go...
Let us conclude agreeing on the main thing which we share.

May the Lord be with you.


You follow your sucession..

Those who follow Jesus... Will follow Jesus.cant serve two masters. He said so.

Again and again it comes down to motive.
Those that defend such ambiguious doctrines about mary which are not stated clearly and unambiguously in scripture do so for one motive and one motive only.
They seek the glorification of a created woman ..
I will not do so but seek that Only the lord Jesus be glorified and NONE other.
None other.

That is None.
In case you missed it ;)
 
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Alithis

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We follow jesus and listen to those he appointed. You should study the early church and how it was structured and doctrine as it was handed down.

We dont follow a guy on a forum who disagrees with 2000 years of what the church has taught and understood as the meanning of doctrine.


By what authority do you disagree with all that came before you? None, except your own opinion...
i follow the teaching of the apostles as they expounded the revealed mysteries of the prophets . the foundation of the apostles and the prophets .
NOT the later additions of the organisation or its traditions YOU refer to as YOUR church . Who added things neither the prophets Nor the apostles taught .
Everything in the new testament writings has its origin foretold in the old testament in the books of moses and the prophets of GOD who spoke by the holy Spirit . any teaching of any organisation which is not harmonious with apostles doctrines and has no foundation in the prophets .is to be utterly discarded .
 
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