Catechism of the Catholic Church--A great resource for everyone

[ViaCrucis]

The "Law" you are referring to is the old Law, which no human was able to keep perfectly. We are now, under the perfect Law of Liberty, while it is not the Law of Moses, it is still a Law, nonetheless. Everyone's salvation today is conditional upon having the "saving" faith of Abraham's which leads to obedience. Faith is only half if Abraham's traits that led to him being the Father of spiritual Israel. You had a choice in whether or not you were baptized. That is called free will and we must respond to God and meet Him half way or else He never gets the opportunity to wash our robes white.

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. - James 1:25

Or is the epistle of James one that you woukd like to do away with?

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:9-13
It is at baptism that God circumcises our heart, putting to death our old man of sin and blotting out our sins with the blood of His Son.
In the prior verse (8) God makes it clear that we could possibly be deceived and never follow through with God's plan to quicken us together with the Son.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8
Obedience of man occupies a very large portion of the New Testament. To me the only way(s) a person could argue against the absolute need of obeying God's directions for salvation is by either "faith only" or by "predestination", neither of which are consistent with scripture.
We believe very much the same things and it sounds like mere semantics seperating us on doctrine relating to salvation.
In Him

Scripture teaches both predestination and our justification by grace alone through faith alone. Faith, here, being God's gift. So there's that.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." - Ephesians 1:3-14

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:1-10

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:28-30

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness'?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'In you shall all the nations be blessed.' So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree'— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." - Galatians 3:1-14

"He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:11-13

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, which is why I suffer as I do." - 2 Timothy 1:8-11

"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:3-7

Your insistence that "law" only refers to the Torah would suggest, therefore, that we are able to do works worthy of righteousness according to other commandments; but here is God's commandment: "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48), and its parallel similar, "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:36); for here is the Greatest Commandment: "And he answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27). Indeed, "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:40), for "There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:31).

So here is God's Commandment: To love God with our whole heart, strength, mind, and will; and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Therefore, to be perfect even as God is perfect, because "He is good and kind to the thankless and the wicked." (Luke 6:35). Which is why "the royal law" is the sum of all God's commandments (James 2:8).

But who has obeyed this law?

St. Paul answers:

“'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.' 'Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.' 'The venom of asps is under their lips.' 'Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.' 'Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.' 'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'" - Romans 3:10-18

For this reason the Apostle continues,

"Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:19-26

-CryptoLutheran

 

[thecolorsblend]

Ephesians 2:8-9...….
"YOU are saved by grace through faith and NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD".

I for one will accept what the Bible says.

Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to grace. As you know, grace, by definition, is freely offered or else it cannot be grace. Correct me if I am wrong but your assertion appears to be that the Catholic Church teaches that the faithful are justified by something like "good works".

The Council of Trent explicitly teaches against that: "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace'."

In effect, you're arguing against a point which the Church is not making. The Church agrees with you.

Now, in cases such as this one, it is common for the points I've made here to be discounted by a well-intentioned non-Catholic. I am rarely or never called a liar outright. But the typical response is a often a variation on an accusation of dishonesty.

My answer for that is rather simple: Nobody on this forum merits that level of effort from me.

As you have probably noticed, some people treat CF as though it's a valid pastoral calling. And I would be the last one to pass judgment on them. However, it's not a pastoral calling for me in any way.

To me, and I say this with respect, the other members are just names on my screen. I don't really care what others think and so I wouldn't bother being dishonest about these matters.

When I explain Catholic doctrine, it's imperative that you understand that I'm doing so with the firm conviction that it's not worth my time to lie to anybody about what we Catholics believe.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Your insistence that "law" only refers to the Torah would suggest, therefore, that we are able to do works worthy of righteousness

-CryptoLutheran

There you go again.....where did I ever say that all references to the "law" is referring to the law of Moses?? Did you read the entirety of my post?? Do you have short term memory issues?? Maybe I only had a vision in which I discussed the law of Liberty??
You do realize that I don't have a problem with any scripture you posted or that's contained within God's word??? Copying and pasting scripture upon scripture without attempting to make a clear coherent point is wasting time, in light of my last statement, or have you already forgotten it?

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: - 1 Peter 1:22

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. - Hebrews 11:8

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:9

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. - 2 Thessalonians 3:14

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 2 Thessalonians 1:8

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Philippians 2:12

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? - Galatians 5:7

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? - Romans 10:16

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. - Romans 6:17

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, - Romans 2:8

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. - Acts 5:29


Just a few of the scriptures that have something to say about OBEYING God, there's that too..........................

 

[Major1]

Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to grace. As you know, grace, by definition, is freely offered or else it cannot be grace. Correct me if I am wrong but your assertion appears to be that the Catholic Church teaches that the faithful are justified by something like "good works".

The Council of Trent explicitly teaches against that: "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace'."

In effect, you're arguing against a point which the Church is not making. The Church agrees with you.

Now, in cases such as this one, it is common for the points I've made here to be discounted by a well-intentioned non-Catholic. I am rarely or never called a liar outright. But the typical response is a often a variation on an accusation of dishonesty.

My answer for that is rather simple: Nobody on this forum merits that level of effort from me.

As you have probably noticed, some people treat CF as though it's a valid pastoral calling. And I would be the last one to pass judgment on them. However, it's not a pastoral calling for me in any way.

To me, and I say this with respect, the other members are just names on my screen. I don't really care what others think and so I wouldn't bother being dishonest about these matters.

When I explain Catholic doctrine, it's imperative that you understand that I'm doing so with the firm conviction that it's not worth my time to lie to anybody about what we Catholics believe.

Actually you seem to be a very nice young man with good intentions. You come across as educated and loyal.

You just said..……………

"I am rarely or never called a liar outright. But the typical response is a often a variation on an accusation of dishonesty."

Now allow me to show you exactly why that is the case and why you feel that way.​

According to the Bible, faith is a simple belief and acceptance in Christ's work on the cross, so that we are justified by faith alone in Christ's work alone which is what is printed in Rom. 4:5, 5:1 and Gal 2:16. That is the position of ALL Protestant believers that I know of.

Then you asked...………

"Correct me if I am wrong but your assertion appears to be that the Catholic Church teaches that the faithful are justified by something like "good works".​

However, according to Catholicism, we see that the faith that is necessary for salvation must be a faith that also affirms what the Roman Catholic Church teaches."

You must believe that or you would not have posted your response.

You are corrected! The RCC in fact teaches that The Roman Catholic Church IS NECESSARY for salvation.

1).
"Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: ‘He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.’,” (CCC 183).

2).
“Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself," (CCC 1814).

3).
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

The facts here are that I did not make up those CCC's but just simple posted them from a Catholic web site.Now either you did not know that or you are not accepting it as a fact. So the facts are that just as UI stated ……..THE RCC IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. according to your own Catechism's.

You see, when anyone says something and then that something is shown to be in disagreement with ones own denominational teaching....the idea of, in YOUR own words...……"Accusation of dishonesty" raises its ugly head.

So what are we to believe......your comments and thoughts or the Roman Catholic Church's own words.

Now please understand that I have NO desire to argue with you on this. I think you believe you are correct and that is fine with me. The point is however a lot of people read this stuff and my goal is not to argue but to show that there is another side of the story that should be seen.

You said that I incorrectly believe that the RCC does not require Good Works to b saved.

Afgain, lets consider the Catholic Church's own words...………..

1).”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).

2). “The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).

3)" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).

THAT my friends means Good Works for salvation plus water baptism.
Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone.

 

[Major1]

If you don't consider baptism as a "work" why do you think I advocate a works based salvation?? I do believe you said that....?
In Him

Yes...…….baptism is considered a WORK because it is something we actual DO.

 

[Major1]

Reminds me of a fish in a shallow pond gasping for air. It's sad to watch, but you watch anyway.

So then allow me to ask you which one of those Catholic doctrines is Biblical.

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find the Catholic doctrine of...….
PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD.

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find the Catholic doctrine of......
PURGATORY?

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find the Catholic doctrine of......
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find the Catholic doctrine of.....
PRAYING FOR THE DEAD.

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find the Catholic doctrine of …...
CELEBARCY FIR BISHOPS AND PRIESTS?

 

[Major1]

Sure, but these are from the Deuterocanonicals. The Apocrypha are a whole nother bunch of books.

There were both produced in the same time frame.

there are many proven errors and contradictions in the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals. Here are a few websites that demonstrate these errors of both:
The apocrypha contradicts Scripture
What About the Apocrypha
Errors in the Apocrypha | CARM.org

The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate. While many Catholics accepted the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals previously, the Roman Catholic Church officially added the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals to their Bible at the Council of Trent in the mid 1500’s A.D., primarily in response to the Protestant Reformation.

The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals are accepted by the RCC so as to support some of the things that the Roman Catholic Church believes and practices which are not in agreement with the Bible.

 

[Major1]

I don't.

-CryptoLUtheran

Then I owe you an apology. It sure seemed to me that you were doing just that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes...…….baptism is considered a WORK because it is something we actual DO.

I don't remember doing anything when I was baptized. It was something done to me, not something I did.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

That does not refute my point.

Certainly it does!

We are saved 100% by what Christ did and nothing by what we do.

We do not have to be baptized to be saved.
We do not have to do one single good deed to be saved.
We do not have to belong to the Catholic church or any other church to be saved.
We do not have to speak in tongue to be saved.

We only have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Major1]

I don't remember doing anything when I was baptized. It was something done to me, not something I did.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, if you were too young to remember, then that says something right there doesn't.....
It did not mean anything to you because of your age!!!

If not, then your agreement and acceptance to be baptized is an action/work.
By acceptance of the ritual you participated in a work (Verb = action).

 

[ViaCrucis]

There were both produced in the same time frame.

there are many proven errors and contradictions in the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals. Here are a few websites that demonstrate these errors of both:
The apocrypha contradicts Scripture
What About the Apocrypha
Errors in the Apocrypha | CARM.org

The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate. While many Catholics accepted the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals previously, the Roman Catholic Church officially added the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals to their Bible at the Council of Trent in the mid 1500’s A.D., primarily in response to the Protestant Reformation.

The Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals are accepted by the RCC so as to support some of the things that the Roman Catholic Church believes and practices which are not in agreement with the Bible.

So if I

1) Find a contradiction in the Protocanonical books
2) Show an historical inaccuracy in the Protocanonical books
3) Find false teaching in the Protocanonical books

May I throw those books out of my Bible?

Let's play this game, with the understanding that I don't actually want to take anything out of the Bible, and that I don't necessarily believe the argument I'm going to make--this is purely for the sake of making a point.

My first proposal, we get rid of the Epistle of James because it contains false teaching and contradicts the rest of the Bible,

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

My second proposal, we get rid of the book of Job, as it mentions mythological creatures as though they were real, namely Behemoth and Leviathan. It also says that Satan is among the angelic council.

My third proposal is that we remove the book of Genesis, because it contains two contradictory creation stories, one in Genesis chapter 1, and another in Genesis chapter 2.

As such James, Job, and Genesis are all Apocrypha and don't belong in the Bible. I'm sure we could find some others to remove if we look hard enough and apply the same criteria.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Certainly it does!

We are saved 100% by what Christ did and nothing by what we do.

We do not have to be baptized to be saved.
We do not have to do one single good deed to be saved.
We do not have to belong to the Catholic church or any other church to be saved.
We do not have to speak in tongue to be saved.

We only have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

You are correct that there are no deeds or works or acts that we can do which save us; but then you turn around and contradict this sentiment by saying that there is something we have to do.

"We only have to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection."

That's a work. If salvation depends on our acceptance of Christ, then our salvation depends on our works.

But salvation is not based on our works, but God's works. What Christ has done; not our acceptance of what Christ has done--but what Christ has done and nothing else.

Faith itself is a gift, apart from ourselves, which God accomplishes and gives us through the Means He Himself has established.

That is why He instituted His Church, and gave His Church the commission to be the instrument of His Word and Sacraments--to preach the Gospel, to baptize, etc.

Read the 10th chapter of Romans, how could have faith unless we hear? How could we hear unless one is sent to preach? For faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Therefore wherever Christ's word is, there God is active, creating faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

Neither are human works. Faith is the gift of God, not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8), a gift given by God through word (Romans 10:17). So that by the hearing of the word God creates faith, as pure gift, apart from ourselves, so that we cannot boast.

Baptism isn't my work either, it is God's work. Because God has attached His word and promise to Baptism, just as He has attached His promise to the preaching of the Gospel.

I don't "do" faith in order to get saved. God, out of His grace, gives me faith and this is how He saves me.

I am a helpless beggar, weak, and dead in my sins. And it is God alone who breathes life into me, makes me alive, and gives me all His gifts--this He does apart from myself, apart from anything I do, think, feel, or say. It is purely by His grace and His grace alone, on Christ's account alone.

Christ has already accomplished everything, God does everything, and I am the subject who benefits of all which God has done already--because this salvation is a promise, freely made and given.

-CryptoLutheran

Not so brother. Baptism is an act of obedience AFTER one is saved to show an outside action from an INside circumcision of the heart.

It does not save but is a ritual which shows and verify to the world that we are changed from the inside out by the power of the Holy Spirit who now lives in us.

If we place in faith in WATER for salvation...…...Now think about this...…..
we are then saying that WATER is as powerful for our salvation as is the BLOOD OF THE LORD JESYS CHRIST.

Does that in any way make any sense to you?????

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, if you were too young to remember, then that says something right there doesn't.....
It did not mean anything to you because of your age!!!

If not, then your agreement and acceptance to be baptized is an action/work.
By acceptance of the ritual you participated in a work (Verb = action).

I didn't receive Holy Baptism as an infant. I was 17 years old when I was baptized, as the tradition I was part of only practiced credobaptism.

So my receiving Baptism constitutes a work? Would my hearing the Gospel also constitute a work?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not so brother. Baptism is an act of obedience AFTER one is saved to show an outside action from an INside circumcision of the heart.

Show me where Scripture calls Baptism an act of obedience for after we are saved to show an outside action from the inside circumcision of the heart.

It does not save but is a ritual which shows and verify to the world that we are changed from the inside out by the power of the Holy Spirit who now lives in us.

Show me where Scripture says that Baptism is a ritual which shows the world that we are changed from the inside.

If we place in faith in WATER for salvation...…...Now think about this...…..
we are then saying that WATER is as powerful for our salvation as is the BLOOD OF THE LORD JESYS CHRIST.

Does that in any way make any sense to you?????

Does it make any sense to place faith in the voice of a preacher, or in ink and paper--is a preacher's voice and ink and paper as powerful for our salvation as the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

However, no, I don't place my faith in water. I place my faith in God and His promises. Those promises He has attached to the water of Baptism means I can trust in what God has done through His Sacrament. I have no faith in myself or my works, I have trust only in God's word, God's promise, God's works.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

I didn't receive Holy Baptism as an infant. I was 17 years old when I was baptized, as the tradition I was part of only practiced credobaptism.

So my receiving Baptism constitutes a work? Would my hearing the Gospel also constitute a work?

-CryptoLutheran

Is that what you think? Hearing is a work?

Romans 10:17 says...……
"Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God".

I think I know what you are saying. Theree are TWO kinds of works.

There are works of "merit" where these things done are.
1). These are works done to "earn" something
2). Those who have done such works believe they "deserve"
something; e.g., those who believe they will be saved:
a) Because they kept the Ten Commandments
b) Because they went to church, did good deeds, etc.
c) They were baptized.

Then there are works of "Faith" .

1) There is no way we can "earn" or merit" salvation!
2) All the good we might do cannot outweigh even one sin!

a. These are things done to "receive" something
b. Those who have done such works believe they "deserve" nothing.
c. They understand their obedience did not earn or merit their salvation
d. They understand their salvation rests upon God's mercy and grace, not because God owes it to them!

Such works can rightly be called "works of God"

1) Of which faith itself is called by Jesus - Jn 6:28-29
2) Other works of faith commanded by God include repentance and confession -
Ac 17:30; Ro 10:9-10
3) Though such works as faith, repentance and confession are commanded...

a) They are not meritorious works; we do not earn salvation through them
b) They are works God has ordained we do to receive His salvation

When all is said and done, salvation is still by God's
grace and mercy!

 

[Major1]

Show me where Scripture calls Baptism an act of obedience for after we are saved to show an outside action from the inside circumcision of the heart.



Show me where Scripture says that Baptism is a ritual which shows the world that we are changed from the inside.



Does it make any sense to place faith in the voice of a preacher, or in ink and paper--is a preacher's voice and ink and paper as powerful for our salvation as the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

However, no, I don't place my faith in water. I place my faith in God and His promises. Those promises He has attached to the water of Baptism means I can trust in what God has done through His Sacrament. I have no faith in myself or my works, I have trust only in God's word, God's promise, God's works.

-CryptoLutheran

I did not say that is was Biblical that baptism was an act of obedience.

That was simply my own words in what I believe.

Gal. 2:20...…...
‘It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me’”.

Ezekiel 36:26 ........
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ...…
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Ezekiel 11:19 ...…
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 24:7 .....
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is that what you think? Hearing is a work?

Nope.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I did not say that is was Biblical that baptism was an act of obedience.

That was simply my own words in what I believe.

Gal. 2:20...…...
‘It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me’”.

Ezekiel 36:26 ........
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ...…
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Ezekiel 11:19 ...…
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 24:7 .....
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

And what I believe is what Scripture says about baptism, by it God gives new birth, unites us to Christ, makes us dead, buried, and raised up with Jesus, etc. All these things God does, we don't do them.

When Scripture says, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27) it's not kidding. Not because water is magic, but because God has attached this promise to baptism, not as a work I accomplish for God, but as something God does for us. God is the worker in His Sacraments, not us. The Sacraments are gifts, not works of the law.

By turning Baptism into an act of obedience we do for God it becomes a work of law; but it's neither. It is a work of God, a gift, something God does for us. That God has chosen to act through visible, tangible means shouldn't be shocking, that is after all how He has always worked throughout history. Most noticeably and obviously we have the Incarnation itself, the birth, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When I hear the Gospel I am not working works of obedience to God, I am hearing and receiving God's gift of His own precious and saving word; that Gospel is the very power of God to save all who believe, to create faith, through which we are saved and justified on Christ's account. It is only meager preaching, and God has called and chosen mere men to be the instruments who preach that word, but nevertheless that word is the very word of God.

-CryptoLutheran