Catechism of the Catholic Church--A great resource for everyone

[Major1]

They didn't originate that practice. That was a custom they had inherited from earlier Anglican Bible translations, such as the Bishop's Bible; it's origin comes from Martin Luther's German translation. Luther's opinion on the Deuterocanonicals was that they were "good to read" but not Scripture. He was also of the opinion that a number of the New Testament Antilegomena were of lesser importance, having gone so far as to refer to the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw in which no Gospel can be found". As such the Luther Bible placed those books of the Antilegomena at the end instead of in their traditional place.

Luther's opinions on the Deuterocanonicals became popular with other Protestant leaders, which is why the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England did not regard them as properly canonical scripture, and hence why they were, like in Luther's translation, placed in their own appendix in official Anglican translations, such as the Authorized Version (KJV) of 1611.

The funny thing is that of all the Protestant groups that came out of the Reformation or formed later on, it's the Lutherans that never dogmatized Luther's opinion on the Deuterocanonicals. There's a pretty simple reason for this: Human opinion is not Christian dogma. So neither the opinion of Rome nor the opinion of Luther gets to declare as dogma the canonical/non-canonical status of these books.



And some of those reasons are, at places, partly incorrect, or at least largely after-the-fact ad-hoc rationales.

1) Actually, a number of the Deuterocanonical books were written in Hebrew, but for a time no Hebrew form of the texts was known, and so a lack of Hebrew source was assumed or speculated. Also, there are books in the Protocanonicals that have no Hebrew original either, such as Esther which was originally written in Aramaic.

2) Virtually no books in the Bible, Protocanonical or Deuterocanonical make claims to inspiration. This is, fundamentally, a non-argument.

3) These works were accepted by some Jews, that's how they got in the Septuagint in the first place. After the fall of Jerusalem and the ascendancy of Pharisaism, led to a more rigorous codification of Jewish practice, hence the writing down of the Mishna and Gemara in the Talmud, as well as establishing the Jewish Canon--but these things happened after the fall of Jerusalem, long after Christianity already existed. While I don't suggest ignoring Jewish opinion, as it can be quite helpful in many ways; I don't see why Christians should appeal to the authority of the Jewish rabbinate for Christian practice.

4) Documentary evidence from the first four centuries of the Church discredits that notion. The writings of the fathers from the first four centuries, when they do discuss the Old Testament Canon, do in fact contain an acceptance of at least some Deuterocanonical books, and in some cases rejections of at least one Protocanonical book. As such opinion among the fathers varied on the Old Testament just as it did for the New Testament. If you'd like such evidence I'd be happy to provide direct citations.

5) Accusations of contradiction abound for the Protocanonical books as well; as to whether such accusations have validity is beyond the scope of my point here. But this line of reasoning is rather specious and seems to be fallacious on the basis of confirmation bias.

6) Theological confirmation bias, "I don't believe in something, therefore I think this can't be Scripture". Should I do away with the Epistle of James because James says that we are justified not by faith alone but also by works? Or should I do away with the Epistles of Paul because they say that we are justified through faith alone and not by our works? Or perhaps it shouldn't be left to me as an individual to pick and choose the Biblical Canon because I'm not qualified to act as lord and master over the whole Christian Church? As for prayers for the dead specifically, one doesn't need 2 Maccabees for that, as prayers for the dead were common Jewish practice (and still is), and was always standard Christian practice, and we see it in the New Testament as well, specifically in 2 Timothy 1:16-18 in which Paul prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. Or perhaps you think we should exclude 2 Timothy from the Bible as well?

7) As opposed to the Protocanonicals in which we find lying, murder, rape, incest, and the like all the same.

Color me, over all, unimpressed. Note that my argument isn't that the Deuterocanonicals ARE Scripture, only that I find the usual arguments (including what you've presented) as incredibly weak.

My official position is that arguments in favor of the Deuterocanonicals and arguments against the Deuterocanonicals tend to be fairly weak and flimsy on both sides, and that it usually boils down to meaningless sectarian partisanship. Catholics say X, Protestants say Y, both make pretty weak cases, and as a Lutheran I consider neither particularly impressive. Which is kind of why I think the official Lutheran position of not having an official position the most sensible.

-CryptoLutheran

Actually I am impressed. I am glad to see that you are a learned man in theology.
However, you do not seem to understand why the Apocryphal books were rejected.

The real question must be, why does the Catholic Church continue to hold on to these uninspired writings ?

There is only ONE reason,

Because many of their fictitious teachings endorse false doctrines of church, such as prayers for dead, false cures, virtue in a burning heart of a fish to drive devils away, alms deeds delivering from death and sin, salvation by works.

As for flimsy and weak, I must then ask you if you have read those books?????

PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD.
2 Maccabees 12:43-46. ………….
"And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

CRUELTY AND SELFISHNESS TAUGHT.
Ecclesiasticus 12 :6...…….
"Give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him."

MMACULATE CONCEPTION.
Wisdom 8:19, 20...…….
"And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled."

Catholics use this text to support their doctrine that Mary was born sinless.

ANOTHER BIBLE CONTRADICTION.
Judith 9:2. ……….
"O Lord God of my father Simeon, who gayest him a sword to execute vengeance against strangers."

God had nothing to do with giving a "sword into the hand of Simeon to execute vengeance" upon the people of Shechem.

ANGEL TELLS A FALSEHOOD.
Tobias 5 :15-19. "The angel said to him [Tobias]: I will conduct him [son of Tobias] thither, and bring him back to thee. And Tobias said to him [the angel]: I pray thee, Tell me, of what family, or what tribe art thou? And Raphael the angel answered: . . . I am Azarias, the son of the great Ananias. And Tobias answered: Thou art of a great family."

Should an angel of God lie about his identity, he would be guilty of violating the ninth commandment.

PURGATORY TAUGHT
Wisdom 3 :1-4. "But the souls of the just are in the hand of God : and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die : and their departure was taken for misery. And their going away from us, for utter destruction : but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality."

Catholic Church bases its belief for doctrine of purgatory on these texts. "Though in the sight of men they suffer torments, their hope is full of immortality."

THAT IS ONLY A FEW OF THE MANY DISTORTIONS AND LIES AND YOU SAY
FLIMSY AND WEAK????????

 

[Major1]

I'm reading it just fine, they are both correct. God, since the creation of man, has required man transform to His will. That is precisely why Jesus said if you kove me keep my commandments. For some reason you have trouble reconciling the two.
Don't choke on it, just swallow it.
BTW, that's scriptural too.

Good stuff!

I have had about all of the excitement I can handle tonight.

Good night and I will see you fine people tomorrow………...unless the Rapture takes place.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Good stuff!

I have had about all of the excitement I can handle tonight.

Good night and I will see you fine people tomorrow………...unless the Rapture takes place.

lol, me too, my finger hurts.
Good evening all and God Bless
In Him

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm reading it just fine, they are both correct. God, since the creation of man, has required man transform to His will. That is precisely why Jesus said if you kove me keep my commandments. For some reason you have trouble reconciling the two.
Don't choke on it, just swallow it.
BTW, that's scriptural too.

If you don't understand that requiring works for salvation is salvation by works then I suspect you are a very confused individual.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again, explain to me how obeying God equates with earning salvation.

Is one's salvation conditional on obeying God?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[concretecamper]

Actually I am impressed. I am glad to see that you are a learned man in theology.
However, you do not seem to understand why the Apocryphal books were rejected.

The real question must be, why does the Catholic Church continue to hold on to these uninspired writings ?

There is only ONE reason,

Because many of their fictitious teachings endorse false doctrines of church, such as prayers for dead, false cures, virtue in a burning heart of a fish to drive devils away, alms deeds delivering from death and sin, salvation by works.

As for flimsy and weak, I must then ask you if you have read those books?????

PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD.
2 Maccabees 12:43-46. ………….
"And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

CRUELTY AND SELFISHNESS TAUGHT.
Ecclesiasticus 12 :6...…….
"Give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him."

MMACULATE CONCEPTION.
Wisdom 8:19, 20...…….
"And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled."

Catholics use this text to support their doctrine that Mary was born sinless.

ANOTHER BIBLE CONTRADICTION.
Judith 9:2. ……….
"O Lord God of my father Simeon, who gayest him a sword to execute vengeance against strangers."

God had nothing to do with giving a "sword into the hand of Simeon to execute vengeance" upon the people of Shechem.

ANGEL TELLS A FALSEHOOD.
Tobias 5 :15-19. "The angel said to him [Tobias]: I will conduct him [son of Tobias] thither, and bring him back to thee. And Tobias said to him [the angel]: I pray thee, Tell me, of what family, or what tribe art thou? And Raphael the angel answered: . . . I am Azarias, the son of the great Ananias. And Tobias answered: Thou art of a great family."

Should an angel of God lie about his identity, he would be guilty of violating the ninth commandment.

PURGATORY TAUGHT
Wisdom 3 :1-4. "But the souls of the just are in the hand of God : and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die : and their departure was taken for misery. And their going away from us, for utter destruction : but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality."

Catholic Church bases its belief for doctrine of purgatory on these texts. "Though in the sight of men they suffer torments, their hope is full of immortality."

THAT IS ONLY A FEW OF THE MANY DISTORTIONS AND LIES AND YOU SAY
FLIMSY AND WEAK????????

Copying and and pasting from an SDA magazine....nice

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Is one's salvation conditional on obeying God?

-CryptoLutheran

Yes obedience is absolutely, beyond a shadow, of a shadow, of doubt. Actually I can't believe anyone who is able to read the Bible could possibly doubt it.....

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. - Romans 6:16-17
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not something to believe only, it is something that must be obeyed.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. - 1 John 2:4-5

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord Jesus was also required to be obedient to the Father, how could anyone think we are so mighty or honourable to not need obedience????

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:7-9

AMEN and AMEN
In Him

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Copying and and pasting from an SDA magazine....nice

and, if he did, makes it untrue how?

In Him

 

[concretecamper]

and, if he did, makes it untrue how?

In Him

At least provide a link to the web page or note in the post where the information is taken from. Otherwise, people may be decieved into thinking all this stuff is original ideas of the poster. Maybe that's what the poster wants?

 

[Major1]

Copying and and pasting from an SDA magazine....nice

You should know and what has that got to do with whether or not it is the truth????

 

[Major1]

Yes obedience is absolutely, beyond a shadow, of a shadow, of doubt. Actually I can't believe anyone who is able to read the Bible could possibly doubt it.....

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. - Romans 6:16-17
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not something to believe only, it is something that must be obeyed.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. - 1 John 2:4-5

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord Jesus was also required to be obedient to the Father, how could anyone think we are so mighty or honourable to not need obedience????

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:7-9

AMEN and AMEN
In Him

AMEN!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I did not say Catholics are "icky" YOU said that.

Alright, if I were to propose removing parts of Scripture from the Bible on the basis of a certain church using certain passages as the basis for their practices, would you consider that a good reason to remove parts of Scripture from the Bible?

-CryptoLUtheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes obedience is absolutely, beyond a shadow, of a shadow, of doubt. Actually I can't believe anyone who is able to read the Bible could possibly doubt it.....

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. - Romans 6:16-17
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not something to believe only, it is something that must be obeyed.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. - 1 John 2:4-5

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord Jesus was also required to be obedient to the Father, how could anyone think we are so mighty or honourable to not need obedience????

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:7-9

AMEN and AMEN
In Him

So which is it, we are saved by our works or we are not?

I would also note the word getting translated as "obey" in these passages is usually ὑπακούω (hypokouo). That is the case in Romans 6:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, and Hebrews 5:7-9. In 1 Peter 4:17 we have the word ἀπειθέω (apeitheo).

I bring this up because hypokouo means to "under-hear" or to receive by hearing. Apeitheo means something like unpersuaded, a refusal to believe something.

If one understands what the Gospel is then they would understand why the idea of "obeying" the Gospel, as though it were law, doesn't make any sense. One does not "obey" a freely given promise.

If I tell my children that I love them and promise to do all in my power to keep them safe, loved, and cared for, that's not a command, that's a promise. There's nothing for them to obey, because no command is given.

One can't obey a promise. One can trust in a promise, but one can't obey a promise.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tz620q]

I would like a little clarication on is this:
"Bible is one avenue of God's grace", what do you mean?
Here is how i believe the Bible teaches it, see if you agree.
God's grace is available to all through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Bible is the only avenue to know how to obtain that mercy.
Thoughts?
In Him

God's grace did not end with the sacrifice of Jesus. His grace is with us today. Let me propose a hypothetical. Two people pick up the Bible and start reading. One gets through a few chapters of Genesis and puts it on a shelf to collect dust. The other has their soul quickened and the light of truth lit within them. What is the difference between these two people? We believe that God gives his grace to people even when they are sinners and know nothing of Him. This grace grows in some and dies in others. It is best seen like an organic process, not a judicial process. The person that stopped reading had not tended the plant of grace that God had planted and could not recognize God through the Bible. The person that read it and responded did this because the grace had already grown within them. They were fertile ground. So did the Bible create the grace? Obviously not, so there must be other avenues of God's grace that exist outside the book. This does not diminish the fact that the Bible can help this grace to grow and mature and can guide that growth. It just acknowledges God's gift in the first place.

 

[prodromos]

Where in the 66 books of the Bible do we find that it is acceptable for an...…..
ANGEL TO LIE?

2 Chronicles 18:18-22
Likewise in Kings

 

[Just_a_Christian]

So which is it, we are saved by our works or we are not?

How about we stick to the facts, instead of you attempting to speak for me. 1st. Show me where I have ever advocated a works based salvation. No man is or has ever been capable of working his way to heaven, and I have never even come close to saying that. My contention is there is a major difference bewteen works and obedience and that no man is capable of pleasing God without doing what He tells us to do.

I would also note the word getting translated as "obey" in these passages is usually ὑπακούω (hypokouo).

Ok, here a verse with the word obey being translated from hypakoē
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: -
2 Thessalonians 1:8

That is the case in Romans 6:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, and Hebrews 5:7-9. In 1 Peter 4:17 we have the word ἀπειθέω (apeitheo).

The word in 1st Peter 4:17 is apeitheō meaning to believe not, it appears in scripture a totall of 16 times. If one does not believe, they, by all means, will not obey. Case in point is this scripture:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
Here again is the word you are getting choked on, apeitheō
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that apeitheō shall be damned.
Clearly, those who do not believe will not be baptized.

I bring this up because hypokouo means to "under-hear" or to receive by hearing. Apeitheo means something like unpersuaded, a refusal to believe something.

I agree 100%
Actually I do not agree 100% for you did leave out a significant definition of hypokouo: hypakoúō, hoop-ak-oo'-o; from G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.

If one understands what the Gospel is then they would understand why the idea of "obeying" the Gospel, as though it were law, doesn't make any sense. One does not "obey" a freely given promise.

The free gift is the grace offered to ALL because all have sinned and come short of His glory. One must be willing,to obey, as was Abraham, in order that the grace have it's intended effect.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: -
Matthew 7:21-24
Clearly, the people in the above scripture believed for they did many wonderful works but they were WORKERS OF INIQUITY because they KEPT NOT HIS WORDS, SAYINGS OR COMMANDMENTS.

One can not leave undone the things we are told to do and still be pleasing to God.
Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David and so on and so on will attest to such.
Just fyi, we also can not do just anything simply because God didn't SPECIFICALLY say NOT TO.

If I tell my children that I love them and promise to do all in my power to keep them safe, loved, and cared for, that's not a command, that's a promise. There's nothing for them to obey, because no command is given.

Yes I love my daughter and when she turned 16 I bought her a car, but told her she could only have it if she obeyed my rules. Did she earn the car, no she most certainly did not.
This is getting very tiresome, let's cut to the chase, obedience and works are two distinctly different things.
To obey is hypakoē
To work is or reap what one sows is
therizō.... I am not, therizō, or earning a salvation, I am merely, hypakoē, or doing what the Spirit through the word tells me to do.
Here is a verse to use your Greek knowledge on to discover what earning actually is, it is not obedience!!!!!!!!!!!
Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. - James 5:4

If you want to say I'm wrong, try to prove works and obedience are the same thing.
In Him

 

[Just_a_Christian]

God's grace did not end with the sacrifice of Jesus. His grace is with us today. Let me propose a hypothetical. Two people pick up the Bible and start reading. One gets through a few chapters of Genesis and puts it on a shelf to collect dust. The other has their soul quickened and the light of truth lit within them. What is the difference between these two people? We believe that God gives his grace to people even when they are sinners and know nothing of Him. This grace grows in some and dies in others. It is best seen like an organic process, not a judicial process. The person that stopped reading had not tended the plant of grace that God had planted and could not recognize God through the Bible. The person that read it and responded did this because the grace had already grown within them. They were fertile ground. So did the Bible create the grace? Obviously not, so there must be other avenues of God's grace that exist outside the book. This does not diminish the fact that the Bible can help this grace to grow and mature and can guide that growth. It just acknowledges God's gift in the first place.

I agree gtace is made availble to all through the sacrifice of our Lord, I however do not believe in any othet means other than the Bible to cultivate that grsce. The longer the fertile heart of the the hearer gets spiritual nourishment from His word the more likely that soul is to become a Christian.
In Him

 

[ViaCrucis]

How about we stick to the facts, instead of you attempting to speak for me. 1st. Show me where I have ever advocated a works based salvation. No man is or has ever been capable of working his way to heaven, and I have never even come close to saying that. My contention is there is a major difference bewteen works and obedience and that no man is capable of pleasing God without doing what He tells us to do.


Ok, here a verse with the word obey being translated from hypakoē
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: -
2 Thessalonians 1:8

The word in 1st Peter 4:17 is apeitheō meaning to believe not, it appears in scripture a totall of 16 times. If one does not believe, they, by all means, will not obey. Case in point is this scripture:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
Here again is the word you are getting choked on, apeitheō
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that apeitheō shall be damned.
Clearly, those who do not believe will not be baptized.

I agree 100%


The free gift is the grace offered to ALL because all have sinned and come short of His glory. One must be willing,to obey, as was Abraham, in order that the grace have it's intended effect.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: -
Matthew 7:21-24
Clearly, the people in the above scripture believed for they did many wonderful works but they were WORKERS OF INIQUITY because they KEPT NOT HIS WORDS, SAYINGS OR COMMANDMENTS.

One can not leave undone the things we are told to do and still be pleasing to God.
Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, David and so on and so on will attest to such.
Just fyi, we also can not do just anything simply because God didn't SPECIFICALLY say NOT TO.


Yes I love my daughter and when she turned 16 I bought her a car, but told her she could only have it if she obeyed my rules. Did she earn the car, no she most certainly did not.
This is getting very tiresome, let's cut to the chase, obedience and works are two distinctly different things.
To obey is hypakoē
To work is or reap what one sows is
therizō.... I am not, therizō, or earning a salvation, I am merely, hypakoē, or doing what the Spirit through the word tells me to do.
Here is a verse to use your Greek knowledge on to discover what earning actually is, it is not obedience!!!!!!!!!!!
Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. - James 5:4

If you want to say I'm wrong, try to prove works and obedience are the same thing.
In Him

Let's look at the definition of the word "work", here's what it means in English according to the Oxford English Dictionary,

"
I. To act, do, function, operate.
1. transitive.
a. To do, perform (a task, deed, process, etc.). Frequently with cognate object. Now archaic (frequently in past tense or past participle in form wrought).

b. To perpetrate (evil, an evil or harmful deed); to commit (a sin or crime). Now somewhat archaic (frequently in past tense or past participle in form wrought).

c.
(a) To perform or observe (a ceremony, rite, etc.). Now rare and chiefly Freemasonry (cf. sense 1c(b)).
(b) Freemasonry. To award ceremonially (a Masonic degree). Cf. degree n. 7b.

†d. To wage (war, a war); to engage in (battle, hostile action). Obsolete (archaic and rare after 17th cent.).

†2. transitive. To perform duly, carry out, execute (something commanded, recommended, or imposed as an obligation). Also: to carry out (one's own desire or intention). Obsolete.

3. intransitive. Of a person or (now only) God, the Holy Spirit, etc.: to do something; to operate, act. Also: (of God, the Holy Spirit, etc.) to operate through or be active in a person. See also to work in mysterious ways at mysterious adj. and n. Phrases.

4. intransitive.

a. Of a thing, system, etc.: to perform a function, operate, esp. in a specified manner. Of a plan, scheme, etc.: to have a specified outcome.

b. To have the desired outcome or effect; to be effective or successful; (also) to satisfy one's requirements or conditions.

Of a machine, device, etc.: to function, run, operate, esp. properly or effectively, or in a specified manner; (also) to be in a functional condition."

Etc. Feel free to see the entry here.

Let's boil that down to something simple: a work is, by definition, something that is done, i.e. some kind of activity. If I do something, by means of my will, thoughts, actions, etc that is by definition work.

Okay, so what about the language the New Testament uses?

Well in Ephesians 2:9 Paul writes that our salvation is not of works (οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ouk ex ergon), ergon being works here. The definition for ergon being,

"Noun

ἔργον • (érgon) n (genitive ἔργου); second declension

1. deed, doing, action
2. labour, work, task" - Wiktionary

"Gloss:
work, deed, activity, task, job

Definition:
anything done, or to be done; a deed, work, action, Jn. 3:21; Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 9:8, et al. freq.; duty enjoined, office, charge, business, Mk. 13:34; Jn. 4:34, et al. freq.; a process, course of action, Jas. 1:4; a work, product of an action or process, Acts 7:41; Heb. 1:10; substance in effect, Rom. 2:15"

So, more-or-less it corresponds in meaning pretty well with our English word "work" here, that is, an activity, something done.

Now I want you to think carefully about this, and tell me: Do you believe that our salvation requires us to do certain things? Do we have to do, act, say, accomplish certain things in order for us to achieve a status of salvation before God?

Because this tip-toe dance going on is mere obfuscation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes I love my daughter and when she turned 16 I bought her a car, but told her she could only have it if she obeyed my rules. Did she earn the car, no she most certainly did not.

The gift of the car was conditional on her obedience, on her working to earn the right to possess and retain the gift. So, yes, she does have to earn the car, because her having the car depends on her doing something.

What we have from God is not a prize conditional on our performance; but is instead a free gift freely given unconditionally.

As Scripture expressly states,

"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." - Romans 5:15

The free gift is ours on Christ's account, not conditional on our account. For what Christ has done is ours, freely, apart from anything we have done, or do. It is ours because Christ lived, suffered, died, and rose again. That's what makes it grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Just_a_Christian]

The gift of the car was conditional on her obedience, on her working to earn the right to possess and retain the gift. So, yes, she does have to earn the car, because her having the car depends on her doing something.

No, I disagree with you on that to the point of DEATH. You purchase a car and let ANYONE have that car but only if they abide by YOUR RULES, they by doing so, do not earn anything, nor could they purchase anything by obeying these rules. As long as they abide by your rules they remain in good standing or in your good grace. This concept flows almost perfectly with God's word.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:7
Your logic is completely unrealistic. The concept from God's word is there is nothing we can do to render ourselves WORTHY of salvation, no amount of good we do can overcome our evil nature. We can't earn salvation, in the same way obeying, my rules for my daughters car or God's rules for salvation, is in any way "a work" worthy of anything, except to reveal the humble nature of someone.

What we have from God is not a prize conditional on our performance; but is instead a free gift freely given unconditionally.

According to the word of God it is definitely conditional upon us obeying Him. Adam and Eve's abode in the garden of eden was very conditional upon them obeying God. God does not change... It has been that way since creation and according to His word, it still is. I have provided more than enough scripture to prove that point.
[/QUOTE]

As Scripture expressly states,

"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." - Romans 5:15

I agree wholeheartedly with that!! I also agree wholeheartedly with the entirety of God's word but you can not WITHOUT disregarding, rationalizing or using MAN'S wisdom to explain much of other scriptures away. Do you believe the Bible contains lies or errors? Do you think God is incapable of seeing that man is equiped with the neccessary information to follow His will? If so, state such and we'll bring this to a swift end.
Furthermore, that verse does not in anyway negate other scripture(S). If said other scripture(S) did not exist I could get on board with you, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE and we do not have the authority to simply ignore them! The very act of ignoring these scripture, by default, indicates we esteem our worth or authority WAY too high.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? - Romans 10:16

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; - Romans 2:8-9

The free gift is ours on Christ's account, not conditional on our account. For what Christ has done is ours, freely, apart from anything we have done, or do. It is ours because Christ lived, suffered, died, and rose again. That's what makes it grace.

Using grace as your proof that obedience is unnecessary is inconsistent with God's word too. Grace is freely given to ALL of HUMANITY and I don't know that I recall hearing anyone, ever, use grace only as an justification for salvation. Surely, that is not your contention.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:21-23
Clearly, from the above scripture, these people believe and had wonderful works and they were condemned because they did NOT the Father's will or OBEYED GOD.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. -
Matthew 7:13-15
The scripture above teaches, even among those of us who are Christians, there will be few that actually end up being accepted.
In Him