Why are Catholics and Orthodox treated differently by protestants?

[ArmyMatt]

I have no idea what information they had or if anything from those who walked with Christ in the flesh wasn't revealed until they wrote the Gospels

I was not there

I know they believed in Christ and followed Him this is all that matters

as I've said my friend Christ told as all we need to know

any other information as long as it is truth is beneficial but one dont need it to get to heaven

If you want me to name this information I can't as the majority of my study is the NT not because I don't wish to learn anything else but rather the amount of information of truth in the NT 4 years in and I still stumble across things I've previously missed it also helps me in remembering in case I think or i hear something I believe is contrary to NT I can refer to it and find out the truth

Is this wrong?

then what do you do with the oral tradition we are commanded to keep?

plus, you don't need to believe in the Trinity? because that word is not in Scripture.

 

[Gregory95]

then what do you do with the oral tradition we are commanded to keep?

plus, you don't need to believe in the Trinity? because that word is not in Scripture.

Where may I find the oral tradition

The Trinity I see in the NT you see God and the Word in first chapter of John and then you see the Holy Spirit mentioned and that it is the Spirit of God that He gives to us also known as the Comforter the word Trinity is just the word for these three correct?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Where may I find the oral tradition

The Trinity I see in the NT you see God and the Word in first chapter of John and then you see the Holy Spirit mentioned and that it is the Spirit of God that He gives to us also known as the Comforter the word Trinity is just the word for these three correct?

St Paul commands us to keep the oral tradition.

my point is if whatever is not in Scripture is unneeded, then the word Trinity is also not needed since it is not in Scripture.

 

[Gregory95]

St Paul commands us to keep the oral tradition.

my point is if whatever is not in Scripture is unneeded, then the word Trinity is also not needed since it is not in Scripture.

Where can I find the oral tradition though genuinely would like to find it

And I personally would have to say i believe
the Father
the Word (Son )
The Holy Spirit

Are one

This is the Trinity

I don't understand why it would or wouldn't be a issue

I would think (maybe I'm wrong been wrong before) its just a way to reference all 3 in one word rather then saying each I mean Scripture makes it clear the 3 are 1

Am I off base here?

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

How I always explain the icon thing to people is - when Hubman and I were courting he lived here in PA and I lived in VA. We only saw each other on weekends. But, we spoke every night by Skype, and while we were talking I always had a picture of him open on my laptop. I wasn't talking to the picture, I was talking to Hubman, but having the picture open helped me feel closer to him - made it feel more real. It's the same thing with icons. As for kissing icons - ever show a picture of grandma or some loved one who isn't present to a little kid? What do they do? They kiss it. Aren't we supposed to have faith as a little child. I kiss the icon because I love who is represented in the picture, and since they're not here in the flesh for me to kiss - I kiss the icon.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Where can I find the oral tradition though genuinely would like to find it

And I personally would have to say i believe
the Father
the Word (Son )
The Holy Spirit

Are one

This is the Trinity

I don't understand why it would or wouldn't be a issue

I would think (maybe I'm wrong been wrong before) its just a way to reference all 3 in one word rather then saying each I mean Scripture makes it clear the 3 are 1

Am I off base here?

no, you are not off base. but that understanding and terminology comes from the Church Fathers. and the NT references the oral tradition all over the place.

 

[Gregory95]

no, you are not off base. but that understanding and terminology comes from the Church Fathers. and the NT references the oral tradition all over the place.

I mean though were can I find what exactly the oral tradition is I know of it but not what it says this is what I would like to find if you can refer me

 

[ArmyMatt]

I mean though were can I find what exactly the oral tradition is I know of it but not what it says this is what I would like to find if you can refer me

you would have to read the Apostolic Fathers, those 1st and 2nd century Christians who were the direct disciples of the disciples.

 

[PlatinumTrophies]

Repentance is necessary for salvation, every Protestant (and Reformed) group believes this. The word used in Scripture means to "change one's mind," and not necessarily a particular work. We must make a u-turn in order to place a saving faith in Christ, and good works proceed from that continual repentance (turning) from sin throughout our lives.

Easy-Believism is another belief you are probably confusing us with, and their view of Lordship. I consider that false.

The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest protestant denomination in the US. They believe repentance is only necessary for a short while until salvation is 'certain'. Then the Baptist can go become a homosexual abortionist.
I hesitate to call the SBC 'Christian'.

 

[Gregory95]

The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest protestant denomination in the US. They believe repentance is only necessary for a short while until salvation is 'certain'. Then the Baptist can go become a homosexual abortionist.
I hesitate to call the SBC 'Christian'.

I worked with a man who used to be a baptist then he became a national socialist atheist I remember him telling me "I was taught once saved always saved so if I'm wrong about God I'm still good because I was saved before"

I find this thought process among a lot of people and truly it hurts the heart

 

[☦Marius☦]

My impression of Orthodox has been solely from CF, on which several seem usually well versed in scripture, a very positive impression. My only concern, having zero experience in an Orthodox church is just things that seem....out there....like kneeling and kissing the ring on some man (definitely not something I could do without it being sin, but that doesn't mean it's not having an totally different meaning to someone else). I also still have reservations about infant baptism, which is also practiced in the church we joined here locally (Lutheran, my first time in one and we continued) about 8 years ago, though I've accepted the idea that in 'confirmation' they are confirming their baptism. So, on the whole, my little-informed impression of Orthodox is pretty positive. I know it's wrong to call any man on Earth "Holy Father" -- we have one Father, and He is in Heaven -- but I don't assume the Orthodox do so.

But see, to me, there will never be any church that doesn't have mistakes/wrongs in it.

Because it's comprised of men.

And that's pretty much a 100% certainty.

So, when I see a mistake/error, it does not create a bad impression.

Instead, I'm very much more concerned whether the people are doing "Love one another" or failing to (which is fatal, on the individual level).

So, while I have some significant disagreements with the Catholic church for instance, I do not conclude anything remotely bad about it from those. Instead, case by case, I would want to know whether a local congregation does "Love one another". If they do, then I can know they are His, regardless of whatever errors are naturally present.

I'm delighted to report, first hand, that Catholics here where I live, and there are very many, predominate -- are loving.

They are. Praise God.

'

Not sure if someone else mentioned this, but to my knowledge we don't kiss a ring, just the hand. This is an act of veneration of the hands that directly touch the holy sacraments. For a bishop we also kiss the right shoulder as it is considered to be the shoulder he carries the cross of prayer for his flock on. Just something to note . I thought it weird at first but one quickly gets used to it. To westerners this along with kissing of the cheeks can seem so foreign, but after living in a monastery for awhile and greeting every priest with "Father bless", and then kissing his hand in thanks afterward- its just another form of affection.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I can only speak on catholics as I've never studied orthadox

I speak as a born again Christian NOT protestant or anything more then born again Christian

What I am about to say I say not to hurt any rather to answer the OP question

1 anyone who reviews the rule of Constantine knows he never left paganism merely he sprinkled Christ on it (this is why atheists who are history buffs laugh at those who say Constantine was Christian)

2 catholic as used in Bible stands for its original meaning which is universal it dose not pay homage to what is known as the catholic church today

3 the pope during the 3rd Reich called Hitler the "savior of Germany" (before I was saved I was a national socialist so I looked deep into catholicism since Hitler was catholic

4 the catholics call the pope Holy Father which is ONLY used in the Bibe as the title for GOD

5 catholic s call priests father Christ said call no man Father ( they interpreted this as call no man spiritual father this is what catholic s say to defend the tradition )

6 catholic church promotes praying to others then Christ namely Mary the Bible says there is only ONE mediator between man and God that is CHRIST

7 catholic s promote praying in vain repution such as the rosery the Bible says do not pray with vain repution for this is what the heathens do

There is more but this will suffice for now

Firstly your mentioning of Hitler is irrelevant. The pope did this before anything was known of the mass deaths of Jews. Hitler before the war did save Germany from economic crisis and despair so it was not an inaccurate statement. There were plenty of Protestant Germans who supported Hitler as well. Why don't you mention them?

Secondly, the term Catholic is not in the Bible at all, but was coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch and you might want to read how he used it before making that point.

Thirdly there is no evidence to suggest Constantine did not fully convert to Christianity. Many misunderstand him waiting until the end of his life to be baptized as this, but it was quite common back then for Christians to do so. There was no established theology on baptism so many Christians waited because they thought it was the only opportunity to have full cleansing of sins (so wait until before death to do it essentially)

Fourthly, Christ himself referred to the apostles as Fathers, and St. Paul continued this tradition and called many his spiritual Children. Also the word Holy from a Biblical perspective merely means "set apart"

Fifthly, yes Christ is the only mediator between the Father and man (which is what the verse actually states), but Mary and the Saints or any other Christian can mediate between man and Christ- who is the one who will sit on the Judgement seat.

And Lastly, the key word in "vain repetition" is vain. Pagans would Chant loudly and the louder they chanted (repetitiously), the more spiritual they were seen to be. This is utterly different that Christian prayer. Protestants also repeat certain prayers such as blessing their food and the sinners prayer and such things.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Sorry my phone was messing up

This is just one thing

Honestly everything EXCEPT catholic history says he was not Christian and still worshipped the sun not the Son

Was the Emperor Constantine a True Christian or Was He a Secret Pagan?

Please address the rest of what I said

Also tell me would the true church of Christ wage a unholy war? I speak of the crusades

The head of the church is Christ Catholics say the head is the pope

If you say I error in what I say about Catholics please visit the Vaticans website

Um, I'm not sure you want to post Ancient Origins as a reliable source there friend. Pretty sure they also write that Mary might have secretly been impregnated by a UFO and that the Ark of the Covenant was a nuclear reactor.

 

[LizaMarie]

The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest protestant denomination in the US. They believe repentance is only necessary for a short while until salvation is 'certain'. Then the Baptist can go become a homosexual abortionist.
I hesitate to call the SBC 'Christian'.

I'm not Southern Baptist but that it not a fair assessment of what they believe. They believe a lot of correct things(Trinity, ect) but I disagree with some of their doctrine. (.i.e. they have no sacraments, ect) I would take a devout Southern Baptist over a liberal mainline Protestant any day.
While I believe "Once saved always saved" is not correct, and not taught in the Bible, Christians from these kind of churches do not believe that you can just say a prayer and then live how you want. (Matthew 7)

 

[straykat]

Um, I'm not sure you want to post Ancient Origins as a reliable source there friend. Pretty sure they also write that Mary might have secretly been impregnated by a UFO and that the Ark of the Covenant was a nuclear reactor.

I've heard one say the Ark was a sonic weapon actually.. and had communications abilities (for communing with the "alien who pretended to be God").

A part of me wants to laugh, but these people are actually pathetic.

 

[Gregory95]

Firstly your mentioning of Hitler is irrelevant. The pope did this before anything was known of the mass deaths of Jews. Hitler before the war did save Germany from economic crisis and despair so it was not an inaccurate statement. There were plenty of Protestant Germans who supported Hitler as well. Why don't you mention them?

Secondly, the term Catholic is not in the Bible at all, but was coined by St. Ignatius of Antioch and you might want to read how he used it before making that point.

Thirdly there is no evidence to suggest Constantine did not fully convert to Christianity. Many misunderstand him waiting until the end of his life to be baptized as this, but it was quite common back then for Christians to do so. There was no established theology on baptism so many Christians waited because they thought it was the only opportunity to have full cleansing of sins (so wait until before death to do it essentially)

Fourthly, Christ himself referred to the apostles as Fathers, and St. Paul continued this tradition and called many his spiritual Children. Also the word Holy from a Biblical perspective merely means "set apart"

Fifthly, yes Christ is the only mediator between the Father and man (which is what the verse actually states), but Mary and the Saints or any other Christian can mediate between man and Christ- who is the one who will sit on the Judgement seat.

And Lastly, the key word in "vain repetition" is vain. Pagans would Chant loudly and the louder they chanted (repetitiously), the more spiritual they were seen to be. This is utterly different that Christian prayer. Protestants also repeat certain prayers such as blessing their food and the sinners prayer and such things.

With Hitler its important to note he wrote mein kamph well before getting into power and his hatred for the Jews was not hidde he referred to them as parasites just feel like you should see what a person believes before praising them

Yes many protestants supported him too they even started the D.C. which logo was a cross with a swastika

Second ill have to check thought I seen it in one of the letters after Romans

Third I admitted I errored and shouldn't of said what I did I had a misunderstanding of the events of the time

Fourth I just am trying to wrap my head around since I read Christ said call no man Father as well as rabbi and if its okay to say Father other then God we should ignore everything He said there it just confuses me I understand the idea of context but I feel like it would be easy for the laymen who don't read to misunderstand as I've met catholics who believe the priest becomes Christ when they forgive sins maybe I'm just missing something that will make it click in my head any help would be appreciated

Fifth I don't understand this ether why would you want to pray to any other then Christ Himself as the Father loves Christ

Christ loves us correct so why go through anything but the direct line I don't get i t would like help on this too

Amd lastly. I understood it like this doing the same prayer before eating or whatever I don't see as anything more then praying or giving thinks vs things like the rosery where you say the same thing repeatedly X amount of times

Look forward to your response I appreciate your time friend

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi Gregory.

No problems - we have to ask to get answers, then we have to weigh them. I'll offer a few thoughts on a few of your questions regarding Scripture and the early Church at least. That part of history I'll leave to others.

I just am trying to wrap my head around since I read Christ said call no man Father as well as rabbi and if its okay to say Father other then God we should ignore everything He said there it just confuses me I understand the idea of context but I feel like it would be easy for the laymen who don't read to misunderstand as I've met catholics who believe the priest becomes Christ when they forgive sins maybe I'm just missing something that will make it click in my head any help would be appreciated

You're right that context is important. That's where the understanding of the Body that received Scripture (before it was Scripture) can help. After all, Paul refers to himself as Timothy's father, and says that we have many teachers but not many fathers. So with no understanding, we'd have a contradiction in Scripture.

We are not to call anyone Father, Teacher, etc. as an extreme honorific. If it's meant to kind of show them as being far above us, it's done wrongly. The "Fathers" in the right context are like actual fathers - they use their wisdom to guide, they protect as they can, they pray for and take care of their sons and daughters, they bear their burdens, suffer over them, serve them. Yes, they are leaders in a sense, but not dictatorial ones. Servants to all, in a sense. I'm not sure if that helps. But if you accept all of Scripture, you have to see that "Father" is not always a forbidden term.

As far as what Catholics might believe, I'm not sure. The priest never "becomes Christ" for us. He does fulfill a priestly role, which the ultimate High Priest is of course Jesus.

We do also have the Sacrament of Confession. The early Church also practiced Confession (generally not privately) ... Jesus did give authority to the Apostles to release or retain sins. BUT ... I want to say that we consider the priest to be only a witness. It is Christ we actually confess to, and Christ who forgives. If a person came to Confession and secretly planned to go right on sinning afterwards, the priest might believe him repentant and might read the prayers that say he is forgiven - but God knows the heart and that is ultimately what matters.

Fifth I don't understand this ether why would you want to pray to any other then Christ Himself as the Father loves Christ

Christ loves us correct so why go through anything but the direct line I don't get i t would like help on this too

We do have a direct line to God. That is always available. But the word "pray" has changed its meaning over time, which causes confusion.

To pray used to be simply a request. You know the older English? "Pray tell, when will the doctor return?" It's not Worship or any such thing - just a request.

Prayers to the Saints are simply asking them to pray for us, much the same as you might ask your pastor or your very godly grandmother to pray for you. We know that "the effectual fervent prayer of a godly man availeth much" ... and who is more godly and effectual than people who love us and are already beyond the temptation and struggle of this life and are now in the presence of Jesus?

Usually there is a question about how or if they can hear us, and whether that is trying to communicate with the dead. The answer is that we do NOT seek to bring them up or converse with them or get them to answer. That would be beyond foolish! (And possibly a demon might offer to trick us!) But they are not omniscient. Like the souls of the martyrs under the throne in Revelation who ask about God's response to what they know is happening on earth, the Saints in heaven only know what they know because they are in communion with Jesus -- and He knows everything.

Amd lastly. I understood it like this doing the same prayer before eating or whatever I don't see as anything more then praying or giving thinks vs things like the rosery where you say the same thing repeatedly X amount of times

Look forward to your response I appreciate your time friend

I hope you don't mind me replying btw. It's just something I enjoy. And if it can help, I'm glad.

We don't pray the Rosary. There are some things about the Rosary (that I've heard) that are taught against by the early Desert Fathers (like imagining certain things during prayer). We usually don't repeat a lot of prayers - mostly prayers are said once during a prayer session except for short phrases like "Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" which might be repeated between other prayers.

An exception is the Jesus Prayer, but that would take a whole lot more to explain. Not everyone prays it, and not everyone who prays it does so with the intention it is supposed to do - very basically it is to teach us to remember God all the time - always - and to teach the heart to pray all the time - unceasing prayer.

But that's really quite different from the Rosary.

Catholics have various things (I'm not sure how widely believed or practiced) that a Rosary can be prayed for a person based on so many days or so many times, just as they sometimes have other actions or prayers they do x-number of times or at certain times - this theology tends to be connected to their doctrine of purgatory or the Catholic idea that all sins require temporal punishment, or are connected to "graces" God gives, but we also don't believe in measured grace or grace as a "thing" ... rather it is the energies of God through which He interacts with mankind.

Anyway. My little attempts to help. Forgive me if anything I've said makes it worse, and feel free to ask further if I've made it more confused or brought up other questions.

God be with you.

 

[☦Marius☦]

With Hitler its important to note he wrote mein kamph well before getting into power and his hatred for the Jews was not hidde he referred to them as parasites just feel like you should see what a person believes before praising them

Yes many protestants supported him too they even started the D.C. which logo was a cross with a swastika

Second ill have to check thought I seen it in one of the letters after Romans

Third I admitted I errored and shouldn't of said what I did I had a misunderstanding of the events of the time

Fourth I just am trying to wrap my head around since I read Christ said call no man Father as well as rabbi and if its okay to say Father other then God we should ignore everything He said there it just confuses me I understand the idea of context but I feel like it would be easy for the laymen who don't read to misunderstand as I've met catholics who believe the priest becomes Christ when they forgive sins maybe I'm just missing something that will make it click in my head any help would be appreciated

Fifth I don't understand this ether why would you want to pray to any other then Christ Himself as the Father loves Christ

Christ loves us correct so why go through anything but the direct line I don't get i t would like help on this too

Amd lastly. I understood it like this doing the same prayer before eating or whatever I don't see as anything more then praying or giving thinks vs things like the rosery where you say the same thing repeatedly X amount of times

Look forward to your response I appreciate your time friend

Hi Gregory.

No problems - we have to ask to get answers, then we have to weigh them. I'll offer a few thoughts on a few of your questions regarding Scripture and the early Church at least. That part of history I'll leave to others.



You're right that context is important. That's where the understanding of the Body that received Scripture (before it was Scripture) can help. After all, Paul refers to himself as Timothy's father, and says that we have many teachers but not many fathers. So with no understanding, we'd have a contradiction in Scripture.

We are not to call anyone Father, Teacher, etc. as an extreme honorific. If it's meant to kind of show them as being far above us, it's done wrongly. The "Fathers" in the right context are like actual fathers - they use their wisdom to guide, they protect as they can, they pray for and take care of their sons and daughters, they bear their burdens, suffer over them, serve them. Yes, they are leaders in a sense, but not dictatorial ones. Servants to all, in a sense. I'm not sure if that helps. But if you accept all of Scripture, you have to see that "Father" is not always a forbidden term.

As far as what Catholics might believe, I'm not sure. The priest never "becomes Christ" for us. He does fulfill a priestly role, which the ultimate High Priest is of course Jesus.

We do also have the Sacrament of Confession. The early Church also practiced Confession (generally not privately) ... Jesus did give authority to the Apostles to release or retain sins. BUT ... I want to say that we consider the priest to be only a witness. It is Christ we actually confess to, and Christ who forgives. If a person came to Confession and secretly planned to go right on sinning afterwards, the priest might believe him repentant and might read the prayers that say he is forgiven - but God knows the heart and that is ultimately what matters.




We do have a direct line to God. That is always available. But the word "pray" has changed its meaning over time, which causes confusion.

To pray used to be simply a request. You know the older English? "Pray tell, when will the doctor return?" It's not Worship or any such thing - just a request.

Prayers to the Saints are simply asking them to pray for us, much the same as you might ask your pastor or your very godly grandmother to pray for you. We know that "the effectual fervent prayer of a godly man availeth much" ... and who is more godly and effectual than people who love us and are already beyond the temptation and struggle of this life and are now in the presence of Jesus?

Usually there is a question about how or if they can hear us, and whether that is trying to communicate with the dead. The answer is that we do NOT seek to bring them up or converse with them or get them to answer. That would be beyond foolish! (And possibly a demon might offer to trick us!) But they are not omniscient. Like the souls of the martyrs under the throne in Revelation who ask about God's response to what they know is happening on earth, the Saints in heaven only know what they know because they are in communion with Jesus -- and He knows everything.




I hope you don't mind me replying btw. It's just something I enjoy. And if it can help, I'm glad.

We don't pray the Rosary. There are some things about the Rosary (that I've heard) that are taught against by the early Desert Fathers (like imagining certain things during prayer). We usually don't repeat a lot of prayers - mostly prayers are said once during a prayer session except for short phrases like "Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" which might be repeated between other prayers.

An exception is the Jesus Prayer, but that would take a whole lot more to explain. Not everyone prays it, and not everyone who prays it does so with the intention it is supposed to do - very basically it is to teach us to remember God all the time - always - and to teach the heart to pray all the time - unceasing prayer.

But that's really quite different from the Rosary.

Catholics have various things (I'm not sure how widely believed or practiced) that a Rosary can be prayed for a person based on so many days or so many times, just as they sometimes have other actions or prayers they do x-number of times or at certain times - this theology tends to be connected to their doctrine of purgatory or the Catholic idea that all sins require temporal punishment, or are connected to "graces" God gives, but we also don't believe in measured grace or grace as a "thing" ... rather it is the energies of God through which He interacts with mankind.

Anyway. My little attempts to help. Forgive me if anything I've said makes it worse, and feel free to ask further if I've made it more confused or brought up other questions.

God be with you.

To add to what Anastasia said about "call no man father" because I feel many miss this;

The purpose of Christ saying this was in direct response to something the Jews were saying throughout the new Testament.

Through Christ's ministry when Christ talked about the future kingdom and salvation, many prominent Jews would retort with "but we have Abraham as our Father".

At the time many Jews believed they were saved simply because of the old covenant and their bloodline, borderline treating Abraham as a Messiah, who was responsible for their salvation- the father of their nation.

Christ responded to this with "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

What this is is a direct slap in the face to all the Jews who called Abraham their savior, their father. It is also the first time in scripture that God is actually referred to as "Father".

 

[☦Marius☦]

With Hitler its important to note he wrote mein kamph well before getting into power and his hatred for the Jews was not hidde he referred to them as parasites just feel like you should see what a person believes before praising them

Yes many protestants supported him too they even started the D.C. which logo was a cross with a swastika

Second ill have to check thought I seen it in one of the letters after Romans

Third I admitted I errored and shouldn't of said what I did I had a misunderstanding of the events of the time

Fourth I just am trying to wrap my head around since I read Christ said call no man Father as well as rabbi and if its okay to say Father other then God we should ignore everything He said there it just confuses me I understand the idea of context but I feel like it would be easy for the laymen who don't read to misunderstand as I've met catholics who believe the priest becomes Christ when they forgive sins maybe I'm just missing something that will make it click in my head any help would be appreciated

Fifth I don't understand this ether why would you want to pray to any other then Christ Himself as the Father loves Christ

Christ loves us correct so why go through anything but the direct line I don't get i t would like help on this too

Amd lastly. I understood it like this doing the same prayer before eating or whatever I don't see as anything more then praying or giving thinks vs things like the rosery where you say the same thing repeatedly X amount of times

Look forward to your response I appreciate your time friend

I also think it is worth mentioning that what Hitler wrote about the Jews was not an uncommon opinion. Why? Because many Jews were very much the political and social elites in the Weimar Republic. When the Nazis took the Jewish property it was enough to revive the German economy and fund the war effort for a number of years. The Jewry was very much sitting on wealth while a great number of Germans starved.

This does not excuse what the Germans did, but it does give some light as to how it all got started.

 

[Halbhh]

To add to what Anastasia said about "call no man father" because I feel many miss this;

The purpose of Christ saying this was in direct response to something the Jews were saying throughout the new Testament.

Through Christ's ministry when Christ talked about the future kingdom and salvation, many prominent Jews would retort with "but we have Abraham as our Father".

At the time many Jews believed they were saved simply because of the old covenant and their bloodline, borderline treating Abraham as a Messiah, who was responsible for their salvation- the father of their nation.

Christ responded to this with "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

What this is is a direct slap in the face to all the Jews who called Abraham their savior, their father. It is also the first time in scripture that God is actually referred to as "Father".

Interesting, but about the idea it was the first moment in scripture, chapter 6 in Matthew for instance is well before chapter 23 in time we think because we believe Matthew is generally chronological. Right?

We happened to have just read chapter 23 in our Sunday morning Bible study, and I spoke up and said I'd like to hear commentaries on those first 12 verses. Even though we all know a commentary is just an informed opinion generally (and so also I view many doctrines people come up with). The meaning I ended up with is that He is saying in the 12 verses several things, including crucially that while we here can be teachers of one another none of us ever is the Teacher -- only He is.

So, also, in like form, while someone can be a 'father' to another, as Paul used the word for example, we all have only one Father, alone, Who is our truly "Father" with a capital letter if you like (as a way to understand He is singularly our only Father, there is no other) -- God alone is our "Father" in that true Father way, and no man can be even partly a substitute for God in that way -- Christ commands us to pray directly to God our Father in Matthew 6 of course as you know, and that's another instance of how only He alone is our "Father" in this capital way. (Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Justin's forum if we discuss this much

Hi Gregory.

No problems - we have to ask to get answers, then we have to weigh them. I'll offer a few thoughts on a few of your questions regarding Scripture and the early Church at least. That part of history I'll leave to others.



You're right that context is important. That's where the understanding of the Body that received Scripture (before it was Scripture) can help. After all, Paul refers to himself as Timothy's father, and says that we have many teachers but not many fathers. So with no understanding, we'd have a contradiction in Scripture.

We are not to call anyone Father, Teacher, etc. as an extreme honorific. If it's meant to kind of show them as being far above us, it's done wrongly. The "Fathers" in the right context are like actual fathers - they use their wisdom to guide, they protect as they can, they pray for and take care of their sons and daughters, they bear their burdens, suffer over them, serve them. Yes, they are leaders in a sense, but not dictatorial ones. Servants to all, in a sense. I'm not sure if that helps. But if you accept all of Scripture, you have to see that "Father" is not always a forbidden term.

As far as what Catholics might believe, I'm not sure. The priest never "becomes Christ" for us. He does fulfill a priestly role, which the ultimate High Priest is of course Jesus.

We do also have the Sacrament of Confession. The early Church also practiced Confession (generally not privately) ... Jesus did give authority to the Apostles to release or retain sins. BUT ... I want to say that we consider the priest to be only a witness. It is Christ we actually confess to, and Christ who forgives. If a person came to Confession and secretly planned to go right on sinning afterwards, the priest might believe him repentant and might read the prayers that say he is forgiven - but God knows the heart and that is ultimately what matters.




We do have a direct line to God. That is always available. But the word "pray" has changed its meaning over time, which causes confusion.

To pray used to be simply a request. You know the older English? "Pray tell, when will the doctor return?" It's not Worship or any such thing - just a request.

Prayers to the Saints are simply asking them to pray for us, much the same as you might ask your pastor or your very godly grandmother to pray for you. We know that "the effectual fervent prayer of a godly man availeth much" ... and who is more godly and effectual than people who love us and are already beyond the temptation and struggle of this life and are now in the presence of Jesus?

Usually there is a question about how or if they can hear us, and whether that is trying to communicate with the dead. The answer is that we do NOT seek to bring them up or converse with them or get them to answer. That would be beyond foolish! (And possibly a demon might offer to trick us!) But they are not omniscient. Like the souls of the martyrs under the throne in Revelation who ask about God's response to what they know is happening on earth, the Saints in heaven only know what they know because they are in communion with Jesus -- and He knows everything.




I hope you don't mind me replying btw. It's just something I enjoy. And if it can help, I'm glad.

We don't pray the Rosary. There are some things about the Rosary (that I've heard) that are taught against by the early Desert Fathers (like imagining certain things during prayer). We usually don't repeat a lot of prayers - mostly prayers are said once during a prayer session except for short phrases like "Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" which might be repeated between other prayers.

An exception is the Jesus Prayer, but that would take a whole lot more to explain. Not everyone prays it, and not everyone who prays it does so with the intention it is supposed to do - very basically it is to teach us to remember God all the time - always - and to teach the heart to pray all the time - unceasing prayer.

But that's really quite different from the Rosary.

Catholics have various things (I'm not sure how widely believed or practiced) that a Rosary can be prayed for a person based on so many days or so many times, just as they sometimes have other actions or prayers they do x-number of times or at certain times - this theology tends to be connected to their doctrine of purgatory or the Catholic idea that all sins require temporal punishment, or are connected to "graces" God gives, but we also don't believe in measured grace or grace as a "thing" ... rather it is the energies of God through which He interacts with mankind.

Anyway. My little attempts to help. Forgive me if anything I've said makes it worse, and feel free to ask further if I've made it more confused or brought up other questions.

God be with you.

"We are not to call anyone Father, Teacher, etc. as an extreme honorific. If it's meant to kind of show them as being far above us, it's done wrongly. "

Asking for a clarification or language understanding --

Isn't this instead the actual Orthodox position --> Not only is none 'far' above others, but nor is anyone even "partly" above -- "You are all brothers" [and sisters of course] Christ said directly to us.

He emphasizes there that none are above anyone else, and I know it's the Orthodox position I've heard here that no bishop is above the others. But I'm assuming that's part of the general situation, that the Orthodox position is precisely like Christ said to the disciples in the beginning of Matthew 18 and again in 23 (v11 for instance), right? That anyone in the Orthodox church would then be expected to be only a servant to the others? Is that correct?