Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

[Oldmantook]

John 10:27 Jesus says His sheep hear and follow both are stated in the present tense. So His statement in verse 28 is referring to those who continuously hear and follow. Verse 29 says no one can snatch them from The Father’s hand it doesn’t say no one can walk away from His hand. This means no outside force can take away our salvation it doesn’t mean that we can’t do anything to lose or give up our salvation.

Hebrews 6:4 doesn’t say they received eternal life. Just because someone is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they automatically receive eternal life.

Another way of interpreting the Heb 6 passage is the present tense verses employed are used to interpret the text itself. These believers were continuing to shame and crucify Christ. These verbs in the Greek are rendered in the present tense. Since they were still "crucifying" and "shaming" Christ, it was therefore impossible to renew them to repentance as their ongoing actions demonstrate that they are not repentant. Without repentance, therefore impossible to forgive them.

 

[marineimaging]

Thank you for your reply as iron sharpens iron. Presumably we all seek the truth and we are all open to correction since none of us is infallible as I've changed my belief on certain things over the years.

We know that 1 John 1:8,10 states that none of us is "perfect" as all of us still sin. Therefore the question is not whether we still sin or not but whether we choose to commit habitual sin. If one's life is characterized by "living according to the light" as it states in 1 John 1:7, then one still sins on occasion and when one does, one repents and Jesus' blood cleanses from all sin. However, the same cannot be said for the Christian who practices sin/habitual sin. Such a believer does not even have fellowship with God according to 1 John 1:6. As contrasted with walking in the light, believers who instead choose to walk in darkness have no assurance of salvation and their sins being cleansed. Their continued practice of sin demonstrates that they have not truly repented because they keep sinning. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness. That is why Paul warned in Romans 8:13 that those brethren who live according to the flesh - WILL DIE. Paul cannot be referring to physical death here because we all physically die no matter what kind of lifestyle we live so Paul can only be referring to spiritual death - no eternal life. James stated the same thing when he wrote in James 5:19-20 that whoever turns a sinning brother away from his error, will save his soul from death. As you know, grace is not a license to sin. Those that sin habitually face spiritual death.

What is the formula to identify and package the quantity or weight of sin that is considered sufficient to be rewarded with complete, hell bound certainty, what we can call the absolute denial by Christ toward eternal salvation? At what level is the sin bad enough or frequent enough to know when you have gone too far? One sin? Two sins? Twenty sins and a bad attitude? Two weeks of bad behavior and bam, that's it? A year...? But then, what if you are contrite for twenty years. Does that undo what I did? As you say, iron sharpens iron and I have honestly been trying to figure out when sin is too much sin. I understood the ONLY thing a saved person could do to lose their salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

 

[Oldmantook]

What is the formula to identify and package the quantity or weight of sin that is considered sufficient to be rewarded with complete, hell bound certainty, what we can call the absolute denial by Christ toward eternal salvation? At what level is the sin bad enough or frequent enough to know when you have gone too far? One sin? Two sins? Twenty sins and a bad attitude? Two weeks of bad behavior and bam, that's it? A year...? But then, what if you are contrite for twenty years. Does that undo what I did? As you say, iron sharpens iron and I have honestly been trying to figure out when sin is too much sin. I understood the ONLY thing a saved person could do to lose their salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

As I wrote previously, Scripture refers to a lifestyle or habit/practice of sinning. It is the "quality" of life referring to "walking in the light" as opposed to "walking in darkness." The "quantity" of sin is not referred to in Scripture. For example if I have the habit of viewing pornography then I am guilty of adultery. I know I have a habit because that is what I practice; I don't count the number of times - all I know is that by my continued actions, it has become a habit or practice of mine. As such, I have a choice - to continue in sin or to repent and forsake my practice of that sin. That is why I cited Paul's warning that those brethren who practice sinning (live according to the flesh) will die. The word "if" in Romans 8:13 shows that it is possible that Christians can practice sin/live according to the flesh. IF a Christian lives according to the flesh/walks in darkness (condition), he will die (consequence). BUT IF a Christian lives according to the Spirit/walks in the light (condition), he will live (consequence). If you were "contrite for 20 years" then sinned, all you do is repent and God forgives as those "20 years" demonstrated that you were indeed "walking in the light." You were not in habitual sin. Study 1st John as it gives assurance as how to know that we are in Him.

It is good that you have "been trying to figure out when sin is too much sin." I think it shows that you are still seeking the truth and have not been hardened in your heart by sin. For me, I was taught in seminary that the genuine believer is eternally secure since my professors were all Reformed in their theology. I just accepted what I was taught but later on, over the course of several years I questioned what I was taught since I consistently came across scriptures that seemed to contradict what I was taught. If you want to discuss more, feel free to IM me.

 

[aiki]

Amen we are saved by grace thru faith. Are we saved by faith without love?

Without whose love? God's? No. Ours? Hmmm...not sure...But even if a love for God is integral to our salvation, desiring God, longing for Him, is not a work.

Are we saved by faith without abiding in Christ?

It is by faith that a person is saved which is tantamount to abiding in Christ. One can only be saved if one is in Christ. But abiding in him is a state of being, not a work. An apple tree doesn't work to be an apple tree; it just is an apple tree.

Are we saved by having a dead and useless faith that does not produce works or bear fruit?

No. But our works - good or bad - having nothing at all to do with how we're saved. I already cited verses which very explicitly and specifically state this.

A saving faith is one that is manifested in corresponding action. This is all James is saying, really. If one really believes, it shows up inevitably in how one lives. Works, then, merely reveal one is saved; they don't secure one's salvation.

Being justified and receiving salvation are two different things.

Nope. Our justification in Christ is the means of our acceptance with God, and our acceptance with Him is essential to our being saved. Salvation and justification are inextricably bound up with each other.

A person can be made right with God (justified) but if he doesn’t abide he will not receive salvation.

Nope. This is just works-salvation which the Bible denies. Jesus is our salvation, not our ability to live right before God.

 

[JIMINZ]

I understood the ONLY thing a saved person could do to lose their salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

That statement needs to be qualified.

"And we all know a Christian would never, Blaspheme the Holy Spirit which resides within them"

 

[BNR32FAN]

Without whose love? God's? No. Ours? Hmmm...not sure...But even if a love for God is integral to our salvation, desiring God, longing for Him, is not a work.



It is by faith that a person is saved which is tantamount to abiding in Christ. One can only be saved if one is in Christ. But abiding in him is a state of being, not a work. An apple tree doesn't work to be an apple tree; it just is an apple tree.



No. But our works - good or bad - having nothing at all to do with how we're saved. I already cited verses which very explicitly and specifically state this.

A saving faith is one that is manifested in corresponding action. This is all James is saying, really. If one really believes, it shows up inevitably in how they live. Works, then, merely reveal one is saved; they don't secure one's salvation.



Nope. Our justification in Christ is the means of our acceptance with God, and our acceptance with Him is essential to our being saved. Salvation and justification are inextricably bound up with each other.



Nope. This is just works-salvation which the Bible denies. Jesus is our salvation, not our ability to live right before God.

I was referring to love for others. The examples given in James 2:15-16 and Matthew 25:42-43 have to do with love for others. Personally I believe in both of these cases the goats and the man who claims he has faith but doesn’t have works are condemned because they didn’t have love for others. Not t because of their lack of work itself but because of their lack of love and compassion.

The fig tree was still a fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 and yet if it didn’t produce fruit it would be chopped down. Just like the apostles produced fruit and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to tell them to abide in Him in John 15. At no time did the apostles lose their free will after believing in Christ they are still in control of whether they will continue to abide or fall away. Otherwise Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10 is completely useless and warning them about doing something that they are incapable of doing.

You didn’t show any verses that says a justified person cannot fall from grace. You only showed that we are justified by faith which I completely agree with.

If you believe we don’t have to abide to be saved then you need to explain John 15:1-10 and how not abiding doesn’t result in loss of salvation.

 

[JIMINZ]

As I wrote previously, Scripture refers to a lifestyle or habit/practice of sinning.

That is an incorrect supposition, for what you are calling a (Lifestyle, Habit, Practice) all refer to a choice of action, where sin is not a choice at all, but the natural course of our lives because of our Human Nature which was corrupted at the fall.

We don't chose to sin, we sin because that is what our flesh does, it sins.
Have you not heard.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is the Natural state of the human being, his Nature is the Nature of the Fallen Flesh whereas, being born of the spirit, is the state of the Believer....This is the New Nature of the Believer.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Therefore.
Rom. 8:1
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 8:3-5
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:8,9
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom. 8:12,13
12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[Oldmantook]

That is an incorrect supposition, for what you are calling a (Lifestyle, Habit, Practice) all refer to a choice of action, where sin is not a choice at all, but the natural course of our lives because of our Human Nature which was corrupted at the fall.

We don't chose to sin, we sin because that is what our flesh does, it sins.
Have you not heard.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is the Natural state of the human being, his Nature is the Nature of the Fallen Flesh whereas, being born of the spirit, is the state of the Believer....This is the New Nature of the Believer.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Therefore.
Rom. 8:1
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 8:3-5
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:8,9
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom. 8:12,13
12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Believers have the ability to live right before God but not all believers choose to exercise that right/privilege. Some choose to sow to the flesh instead of sowing to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as being unregenerate they can only live according to the flesh. Only believers have the CHOICE whether to sin or not to sin. Those that choose to live in continued sin, have no eternal life and instead incur spiritual death as Paul warned in Rom 8:13 which ironically you cited to support your belief.

 

[JIMINZ]

The fig tree was still a fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 and yet if it didn’t produce fruit it would be chopped down. Just like the apostles produced fruit and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to tell them to abide in Him in John 15.

Your example is incorrect to make the point your attempting to make.

The Fig Tree does not abide in anything but itself, while it's the Branches of the Vine which must produce the fruit....There not the same.

The Fig Tree was ISRAEL which was not bearing fruit, and would be chopped down, it is not a metaphor of the Christian losing his Belief.

 

[JIMINZ]

Believers have the ability to live right before God but not all believers choose to exercise that right/privilege. Some choose to sow to the flesh instead of sowing to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice as being unregenerate they can only live according to the flesh. Only believers have the CHOICE whether to sin or not to sin. Those that choose to live in continued sin, have no eternal life and instead incur spiritual death as Paul warned in Rom 8:13 which ironically you cited to support your belief.

Well the Context of what was being taught by Paul begins in verse 12 and ends in verse 17.

Paul is teaching, he's giving differences between the Believer and the Un-Believer, he isn't showing how a believer vacillatesback and forth from the Flesh to the Spirit.

Paul said this about Sin, do you understand what he was saying, and if you do, do you believe it?......I only use the one verse to make the point, where verses 1-11 are the entire context.

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Believers do not have the ability to live in the Light or in Darkness after they have received Christ as their Savior, walking in the Light is what Believers do.

Gal.5:24
they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

This Crucifying of the Flesh is our Dying to the Flesh, our being Born again of the Spirit unto Newness of Life in the Spirit, we no longer walk in the Flesh

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your example is incorrect to make the point your attempting to make.

The Fig Tree does not abide in anything but itself, while it's the Branches of the Vine which must produce the fruit....There not the same.

The Fig Tree was ISRAEL which was not bearing fruit, and would be chopped down, it is not a metaphor of the Christian losing his Belief.

Where does it say the fig tree is referring to Israel in the scriptures? Are you referring to Romans 11? If so the branches were cut off for unbelief in Romans 11 not for failing to produce fruit. The same message is given in John 15. Those who don’t bear fruit are cut off from the vine just as the fig tree Jesus cursed for not bearing fruit withered & died. Also mentioned in a John 15 the branches that do not abide are thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to be burned.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well the Context of what was being taught by Paul begins in verse 12 and ends in verse 17.

Paul is teaching, he's giving differences between the Believer and the Un-Believer, he isn't showing how a believer vacillatesback and forth from the Flesh to the Spirit.

Paul said this about Sin, do you understand what he was saying, and if you do, do you believe it?......I only use the one verse to make the point, where verses 1-11 are the entire context.

Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Believers do not have the ability to live in the Light or in Darkness after they have received Christ as their Savior, walking in the Light is what Believers do.

Gal.5:24
they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

This Crucifying of the Flesh is our Dying to the Flesh, our being Born again of the Spirit unto Newness of Life in the Spirit, we no longer walk in the Flesh

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

No. Read the verse carefully. In Rom 8:13 Paul wrote IF you live according to the flesh. He was certainly NOT addressing the unbeliever in this particular clause because an unbeliever can only live according to the flesh. Therefore it is not a matter of "if." If Paul were addressing the unbeliever as you claim, he would have employed the word SINCE since unbelievers can only live according to the flesh. Only believers have the CHOICE whether IF they should live according to the flesh or IF they should live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice. If a believer chooses to live according to the flesh, he/she will spiritually die.

Do you really think it is impossible for you to not sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[aiki]

I was referring to love for others. The examples given in James 2:15-16 and Matthew 25:42-43 have to do with love for others.

I see. As you'd expect, my understanding of Scripture is that love for others simply reveals the genuineness of one's faith, and salvation, and love of God. The First and Great Commandment is, you see, the ground out of which the Second arises. Be this as it may, works of love do not save - as the verses I cited indicate very clearly.

Personally I believe in both of these cases the goats and the man who claims he has faith but doesn’t have works are condemned because they didn’t have love for others.

Well, you can certainly read this into the passage - and you have.

The fig tree was still a fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 and yet if it didn’t produce fruit it would be chopped down.

Yes, and? Was the fig tree not a fig tree because it wasn't bearing figs? No. A fig tree is a fig tree regardless of the figs it bears (or does not bear). So, too, the Christian. He is a Christian regardless of whether or not he bears spiritual fruit (though it is far more likely that he will bear fruit than not). That was my point.

By the way, the fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 doesn't get chopped down. Instead, despite its persistent fruitlessness, there is an advocate for the tree who obtains a further grace period in which the tree might produce fruit and who promises to nourish the fruitless fig tree very carefully. Quite a different ending from the one with which you're threatening fellow believers.

Just like the apostles produced fruit and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to tell them to abide in Him in John 15.

Christ said what he did to his disciples having not yet died for their sins and the Holy Spirit not yet come to indwell them. Essentially, Jesus was telling his disciples that they would need to be born again, baptized into him by the Holy Spirit, and so made to abide in him. Without this happening, they would not be able to bear fruit as he wanted them to. Without a second spiritual birth, they would not be "in the Vine," nourished and enabled by him to bear spiritual fruit.

At no time did the apostles lose their free will after believing in Christ they are still in control of whether they will continue to abide or fall away.

They were not "in control" of the work of salvation God wrought in them. They did not draw themselves to Christ (John 6:44); they did not muster up from within themselves the capacity to repent and believe the Gospel (2 Timothy 2:25); they did not find from their own human resources the faith to believe (Romans 12:3), and so on. God saves us, we don't save ourselves. And what God has done in saving a person they cannot undo. He did not need your permission to begin the process whereby He saved you (you could not have given it being "dead in trespasses and sins" even if He had) and He does not need your permission to continue to keep you saved.

Otherwise Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10 is completely useless and warning them about doing something that they are incapable of doing.

See above.

You didn’t show any verses that says a justified person cannot fall from grace. You only showed that we are justified by faith which I completely agree with.

No, you don't actually agree with justification by faith. The moment you make yourself a contributor to your own salvation, which you do by asserting that a person must do righteous works in order to remain saved, you necessarily deny justification by faith. Works-salvation is essentially the belief you can be justified by what you do, not by faith in the finished and perfect atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary.

If you believe we don’t have to abide to be saved then you need to explain John 15:1-10 and how not abiding doesn’t result in loss of salvation.

See above. Also, verse 2 is actually better rendered "lifts up" rather than "takes away." This accords better with the actual viticultural practice of the time (which was to lift up the non-fruiting branches onto trellises) and with the most common rendering of airo (rendered "take up" 32 times in the New Testament), the root meaning of which is "to lift" rather than "remove."

Verse 6 is not speaking of a saved person who has fallen out of the faith, but of one who has not been saved, who has not yet begun to abide in Christ. This person stands in contrast to the one who is in Christ, the Vine, abiding in him by their baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:1-6; Romans 8:9-11).

 

[JIMINZ]

No. Read the verse carefully. In Rom 8:13 Paul wrote IF you live according to the flesh. He was certainly NOT addressing the unbeliever in this particular clause because an unbeliever can only live according to the flesh. Therefore it is not a matter of "if." If Paul were addressing the unbeliever as you claim, he would have employed the word SINCE since unbelievers can only live according to the flesh. Only believers have the CHOICE whether IF they should live according to the flesh or IF they should live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice. If a believer chooses to live according to the flesh, he/she will spiritually die.

Do you really think it is impossible for you to not sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If you are unable to see in context Paul is teaching, using the differences to make the point.

He is using the example of the Un -Believer and the Believer to get them to understand, but you apparently cannot understand what he said because of your Religious bias, and your preconceived belief, and because of that bias, you are able to read into what Paul said anything you want it to say, in order for you belief to be reinforced.

Then there isn't any need to go further.

 

[Oldmantook]

If you are unable to see in context Paul is teaching, using the differences to make the point.

He is using the example of the Un -Believer and the Believer to get them to understand, but you apparently cannot understand what he said because of your Religious bias, and your preconceived belief, and because of that bias, you are able to read into what Paul said anything you want it to say, in order for you belief to be reinforced.

Then there isn't any need to go further.

Your reply did not even address what I wrote which is very telling. How is it possible for an unbeliever to not live according to the flesh? How can Paul write IF (you as an unbeliever) live according to the flesh, you will die...? An unbeliever can only live according to the flesh so it is not a question of IF. "IF" can only apply to the genuine believer who can choose If he will live according to the flesh or IF he will live according to the Spirit. You have totally ignored the text of this verse in order to cling to your view.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I see. As you'd expect, my understanding of Scripture is that love for others simply reveals the genuineness of one's faith, and salvation, and love of God. The First and Great Commandment is, you see, the ground out of which the Second arises. Be this as it may, works of love do not save - as the verses I cited indicate very clearly.



Well, you can certainly read this into the passage - and you have.



Yes, and? Was the fig tree not a fig tree because it wasn't bearing figs? No. A fig tree is a fig tree regardless of the figs it bears (or does not bear). So, too, the Christian. He is a Christian regardless of whether or not he bears spiritual fruit (though it is far more likely that he will bear fruit than not). That was my point.

By the way, the fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 doesn't get chopped down. Instead, despite its persistent fruitlessness, there is an advocate for the tree who obtains a further grace period in which the tree might produce fruit and who promises to nourish the fruitless fig tree very carefully. Quite a different ending from the one with which you're threatening fellow believers.



Christ said what he did to his disciples having not yet died for their sins and the Holy Spirit not yet come to indwell them. Essentially, Jesus was telling his disciples that they would need to be born again, baptized into him by the Holy Spirit, and so made to abide in him. Without this happening, they would not be able to bear fruit as he wanted them to. Without a second spiritual birth, they would not be "in the Vine," nourished and enabled by him to bear spiritual fruit.



They were not "in control" of the work of salvation God wrought in them. They did not draw themselves to Christ (John 6:44); they did not muster up from within themselves the capacity to repent and believe the Gospel (2 Timothy 2:25); they did not find from their own human resources the faith to believe (Romans 12:3), and so on. God saves us, we don't save ourselves. And what God has done in saving a person they cannot undo. He did not need your permission to begin the process whereby He saved you (you could not have given it being "dead in trespasses and sins" even if He had) and He does not need your permission to continue to keep you saved.



See above.



No, you don't actually agree with justification by faith. The moment you make yourself a contributor to your own salvation, which you do by asserting that a person must do righteous works in order to remain saved, you necessarily deny justification by faith. Works-

Him

salvation is essentially the belief you can be justified by what you do, not by faith in the finished and perfect atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary.



See above. Also, verse 2 is actually better rendered "lifts up" rather than "takes away." This accords better with the actual viticultural practice of the time (which was to lift up the non-fruiting branches onto trellises) and with the most common rendering of airo (rendered "take up" 32 times in the New Testament), the root meaning of which is "to lift" rather than "remove."

Verse 6 is not speaking of a saved person who has fallen out of the faith, but of one who has not been saved, who has not yet begun to abide in Christ. This person stands in contrast to the one who is in Christ, the Vine, abiding in him by their baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:1-6; Romans 8:9-11).

I never said works save at all. I said a faith that produces works saves. Notice James 2:14 can that faith save him, referring to the type of faith that doesn’t produce works. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith which produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith.

Yes, and? Was the fig tree not a fig tree because it wasn't bearing figs? No. A fig tree is a fig tree regardless of the figs it bears (or does not bear). So, too, the Christian. He is a Christian regardless of whether or not he bears spiritual fruit (though it is far more likely that he will bear fruit than not). That was my point.

By the way, the fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 doesn't get chopped down. Instead, despite its persistent fruitlessness, there is an advocate for the tree who obtains a further grace period in which the tree might produce fruit and who promises to nourish the fruitless fig tree very carefully. Quite a different ending from the one with which you're threatening fellow believers.

Your saying that a Christian is saved regardless of whether or not they bear fruit and abide in Christ which is contradictory to John 15:2, John 15:6, James 2:14, and Matthew 25:42-43. You also say a Christian might not produce fruit but Jesus said anyone who abides in Me WILL produce MUCH fruit. Anyone who does not abide will be cut off from the vine (Jesus) thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to be burned. Nothing about the consequences of not bearing fruit and not abiding in Christ can result in salvation.

You claim the fig in tree Luke 13 doesn’t get chopped down but we don’t know that. What we do know is the fact that the tree would undoubtedly be chopped down if it did not bear fruit. We know that for a fact because Jesus specifically said so in the parable. The nourishment is irrelevant. The bottom line is if it doesn’t bear fruit it gets chopped down. Your attempting to twist the scriptures to fit your beliefs. What is the point of the parable if all fig trees (Christians) will bear fruit? There’s no point of this message if no fig tree (Christian) will be chopped down.

Just like you also failed to explain why Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of not abiding if they are incapable of failing to abide. Your explanation dodged this question and was in error by saying not all Christians will bear fruit contradicting John 15:5.

You quoted John 6:44 to which I would reply John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-4, and 2 Peter 3:9. John 6:44 does not say that all men will not be drawn to Him. To say this would be a contradiction of John 12:32. God desires all men to repent and be saved and Jesus will call all men to repentance. Only those who accept and abide will receive salvation. It’s interesting that you quoted Romans 12:3 since it actually supports my position.

“For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.”

And what is the message in 2 Timothy 2:25? Not to be quarrelsome but instead to be patient with those who are in opposition because God may grant them repentance and knowledge of truth at a later time.

About John 15:2 your definition is incorrect. “Lifts up” is not the more accurate translation according to the definition of the word aírō.

G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The branch is attached to the vine so the correct definition pertaining to something that is attached to anything is take off or remove what is attached.

So far you haven’t produced anything that is scriptural. You’ve only succeeded in attempting to twist the scriptures to coincide with your beliefs. I’m simply teaching the same thing the very churches established by the apostles have always taught not something that came about 1500 years later.

 

[JIMINZ]

Your reply did not even address what I wrote which is very telling. How is it possible for an unbeliever to not live according to the flesh? How can Paul write IF (you as an unbeliever) live according to the flesh, you will die...? An unbeliever can only live according to the flesh so it is not a question of IF. "IF" can only apply to the genuine believer who can choose If he will live according to the flesh or IF he will live according to the Spirit. You have totally ignored the text of this verse in order to cling to your view.

What is the need to address a post that is based upon a misunderstanding, misinterpretation of what Scripture says.

I addressed what was important which was your understanding being flawed.

Rom 8:12-17 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Notice, everything in BLUE is a positive for the Believer, whereas the one sentence out of one verse in RED is the contrast for the Believer.

Paul did not say the Believer that falls away, he is using the (YE) as a graphic example they would understand, are you saying you don't understand what he was teaching?

Paul was not speaking to Un-Believers, he was using the Un_believer as the example of who they (Believers) were and what they (Believers) had come from, (DEATH) into life.

Paul was not speaking about a Believer losing his Salvation, for if he was, everything else he wrote was not only not needed, it doesn't make any sense to have said it.

You really need to stop reading things into Scripture which clearly are not said, and by so doing, your understanding would grow exponentially.

How can Paul write IF (you as an unbeliever) live according to the flesh, you will die...?

Paul does not say If (you as an unbeliever), Paul clearly says.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

Paul does not Teach by inference, and allusion
Your reading only reinforces your presupposed beliefs.

To date, you have not fully purged yourself from what you were taught in
Seminary, it shows in your writings.

 

[Oldmantook]

What is the need to address a post that is based upon a misunderstanding, misinterpretation of what Scripture says.

I addressed what was important which was your understanding being flawed.

Rom 8:12-17 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Notice, everything in BLUE is a positive for the Believer, whereas the one sentence out of one verse in RED is the contrast for the Believer.

Paul did not say the Believer that falls away, he is using the (YE) as a graphic example they would understand, are you saying you don't understand what he was teaching?

Paul was not speaking to Un-Believers, he was using the Un_believer as the example of who they (Believers) were and what they (Believers) had come from, (DEATH) into life.

Paul was not speaking about a Believer losing his Salvation, for if he was, everything else he wrote was not only not needed, it doesn't make any sense to have said it.

You really need to stop reading things into Scripture which clearly are not said, and by so doing, your understanding would grow exponentially.



Paul does not say (If you as an unbeliever), Paul clearly says.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

Paul does not Teach by inference, and allusion
Your reading only reinforces your presupposed beliefs.

To date, you have not fully purged yourself from what you were taught in
Seminary, it shows in your writings.

Again you have failed to address the verse itself which provides its own context. How can Paul use the word IF since unbelievers ALWAYS live according to the flesh?? This is the third time that I've asked you this question and you have failed to address it. If you don't care to answer my question then that's your prerogative but don't bother to reply. If you instead wrestled with the text itself instead of avoiding it, perhaps your understanding would grow exponentially.

 

[JIMINZ]

Again you have failed to address the verse itself which provides its own context. How can Paul use the word IF since unbelievers ALWAYS live according to the flesh?? This is the third time that I've asked you this question and you have failed to address it. If you don't care to answer my question then that's your prerogative but don't bother to reply. If you instead wrestled with the text itself instead of avoiding it, perhaps your understanding would grow exponentially.

No need to become snotty about it, I could say exactly the same things to you.

Paul does not say If (you as an unbeliever), Paul clearly says.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

He is not speaking about Non-Believers, he is giving a contrast for the Believer so they understand they should be living righteously.

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Why can't you see that, they did?


Paul does not Teach by inference, and allusion
Your reading only reinforces your presupposed beliefs.

 

[Oldmantook]

No need to become snotty about it, I could say exactly the same things to you.

Paul does not say If (you as an unbeliever), Paul clearly says.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

He is not speaking about Non-Believers, he is giving a contrast for the Believer so they understand they should be living righteously.

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Why can't you see that, they did?


Paul does not Teach by inference, and allusion
Your reading only reinforces your presupposed beliefs.

You mentioned I would grow exponentially if I heeded your explanation so I reminded you that your advice works both ways doesn't it? I suggest that if you are not familiar with the Greek language it would do you some good to at least get acquainted with it. Romans 8:13 is a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek. These types of sentence denote simple cause and effect; i.e. if this happens then this is the result. These types of sentences are formed by the qualifier "if." If you live according to the flesh (protasis) then you will die (apodosis). Paul is stating a cause and effect qualified by the "if." Paul is stating that if the protasis/condition is true, then the apodosis/consequence is true. Thus he warns If you (brethren) live according to the flesh then you will die BUT IF you (brethren) live according to the Spirit you will live. If indicates possibility - not certainty. If indicates a believer can choose IF he will live according to the flesh OR IF he will live according to the Spirit. The believer has a choice. The unbeliever has no such choice. This verse being a 1st class conditional sentence indicates that if a believer lives according to the flesh, then he will indeed die.