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Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

BNR32FAN

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This is the pot calling the kettle black. Who was it who called my view "a bunch of garbage"? Who has put the "funny" smiley face on my posts in mockery of them? Who has insinuated that I'm ignorant and stupid? You, BNR32FAN. It's...interesting that you are so quick to object to the very sort of treatment you have given others.

Yes I called your view a bunch of garbage after you said my view is “nonsensical”. I also gave reasonable evidence to support my beliefs where Jaminez didn’t provide any evidence. That was my main point.

??? This is nonsensical. As I pointed out, it was the practice of vinedressers of Christ's time to lift up non-fruiting branches of vines onto trellises, not cut them off. As well, the most common usage of airo in the NT is "take up" not "take away." What's more, the root meaning of airo is "lift up," not "cut off." All of these things make a very strong cumulative case for airo being rendered "take/lift up."

If anything what your saying here is nonsensical. The branches that do not bear fruit are not abiding in Christ. Just like the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit and Jesus cursed it and it withered and died. Just like verse 6 that says anyone who does not abide will be thrown away to wither and thrown in the fire to be burned. Jesus is telling them that He has chosen them to bear fruit and if they do not they will be tossed in the fire to be burned. Just like if an employer tells his employees I have hired you to do a job. Anyone who does not do their job will be fired. Conditional salvation has been taught since the beginning of the church. Eternal security began just a little over 500 years ago. The thing is I have early church father’s writings from the very churches established by the apostles dating back to 180AD to back my point of view. Yours began in the mid 1500s and not a single church established by the apostles themselves ever agreed with them.
 
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JIMINZ

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So you insulted me and can’t back up your claims then? Why even discuss it if your only going to say I’m ignorant without showing any evidence supporting your claim? Is your intention here to insult others or to help others understand?

Your statement was
Please enlighten me then by answering your own questions so I can prove you wrong.

I take that to be a the viewpoint of an ignorant person.
First off, you cannot answer the questions.
Second, you believe anything I would say is wrong.

With that attitude, I don't think I could help you, have you ever read this.

Mat. 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
 
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JIMINZ

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Why even discuss it if your only going to say I’m ignorant without showing any evidence supporting your claim?

You made statements, I never made a claim one way or the other, except possibly by asking you some questions.

I was interested to find out if you really knew what it was you were talking about, seeing you were Interpreting Scripture.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your statement was


I take that to be a the viewpoint of an ignorant person.
First off, you cannot answer the questions.
Second, you believe anything I would say is wrong.

With that attitude, I don't think I could help you, have you ever read this.

Mat. 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Here’s the questions

1) What is it about these verses which make you believe they are a Parable?
2) What is the one thing which appears in the Parables of Jesus that is not present in these verses?
3) Why did Jesus speak in Parables?
4) Who did Jesus only speak in Parables too?

Here's the answers I replied

1. It is called the parable of the vinedresser. Most likely because it is an illustration not a literal message. Jesus is not literally a vine and we are not literally branches.

2. I’m not sure.

3. Jesus spoke in parables so that only those who listen to His message will understand and those who don’t listen won’t understand.

4. Jesus spoke to everyone in parables. Perhaps you think He only spoke to nonbelievers in parables but that is not true.

I answered all but one question. Please forgive me for not being more courteous after you insulted me.
 
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aiki

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Yes I called your view a bunch of garbage after you said my view is “nonsensical”. I also gave reasonable evidence to support my beliefs where Jaminez didn’t provide any evidence. That was my main point.

This rather misses my point which was that you ought not to object to rough treatment when you are so quick to give it out yourself.

If anything what your saying here is nonsensical. The branches that do not bear fruit are not abiding in Christ.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, a new believer - a new branch in the vine - needs time to grow, to mature in the faith, and thus be able to bear fruit. No new branch sprouting from a vine immediately bears fruit. And so, we read in Paul's letter to the Corinthians of carnal Christians, "babes in Christ" Paul calls them, who were petty, contentious, envious, engaged even in gross sexual sin (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 6; 1 Corinthians 11:17-34). He did not warn them of salvation lost, threatening them with eternal damnation if they didn't get their act together. Instead, he repeatedly confirmed their membership in God's family (1 Corinthians 3:9, 16, 23) and encouraged them into more godly living.

Just like the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit and Jesus cursed it and it withered and died.

As I already pointed out, this incident was related to national Israel, not the individual Christian believer. And, as I also pointed out, the fruitlessness of the fig tree in the parable did not change the fact that it was a fig tree, nor did it result in the immediate destruction of the fig tree. It was allowed to continue to grow in the vineyard in the hopes that careful attendance to it by the vinedresser would cause it to produce fruit. You completely ignore these things and magnify inordinately the only part that seems to help your view. This is bad handling of Scripture, in my opinion.

Just like verse 6 that says anyone who does not abide will be thrown away to wither and thrown in the fire to be burned. Jesus is telling them that He has chosen them to bear fruit and if they do not they will be tossed in the fire to be burned.

"If any man," as verse 6 begins, indicates Christ's words included more than the disciples. He was speaking a general truth in the verse, explaining that to not abide in him was to be lost.

Just like if an employer tells his employees I have hired you to do a job. Anyone who does not do their job will be fired.

You really don't understand how to walk with God, do you? Goodness! How legalistic and fearful your life as a believer must be!

We are not God's employees; we are His children, joint-heirs with Christ, in fact. Does a loving, patient, faithful, gracious parent whose child disobeys cast that child from the family to be destroyed? Of course not. And God, who is far more loving, gracious, patient and faithful than any human parent, is not about to throw His children away to be destroyed, either. No, instead, He disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:5-11), teaching them and drawing them into right relationship with Himself.

Conditional salvation has been taught since the beginning of the church.

Many false doctrines had infiltrated the Early Church.

Eternal security began just a little over 500 years ago.

Nope. I read of eternal security in the pages of my Bible which has existed for a lot longer than 500 years.

The thing is I have early church father’s writings from the very churches established by the apostles dating back to 180AD to back my point of view.

And I have the very words of Scripture itself. Checkmate.
 
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BCsenior

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I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
Why not consider this while comparing
the so-called eternal security verses
against those which oppose them ...

------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are those who love
Him and who are “obedient” to His commandments!

------------------------------------------------------------
 
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BCsenior

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I've made a slight modification to the following.
P.S. Very few have commented on the original version.


------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith-trust-obedience
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are the BACs who
love Him enough to be “obedient” to His commandments!

------------------------------------------------------------
 
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JIMINZ

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There are those who by hearing they hear and will not understand, or by seeing they see and will not perceive.
Because of their doubt, it has not been given them to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom.

Remember He said, those failing to receive the Kingdom of God as children, are forbidden entrance.

For we, having been freed from sin in which we were held, have passed from death unto life, walking now according to the newness of life which is in us.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I've been tossed between doctrines many times.
I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven? But simply just knowing the truth... For example there's a scripture that talks about that some are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I don't want that to be me...
Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
Matthew 24:48-51 King James Version (KJV)
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Brothers and sisters, this was not meant to be a debate. We can send scriptures but as far as that goes that should be the end, let the Lord speak to those who have a ear.

My beloved brothers and sisters, please do not be deceived by false doctrine.
Please, draw near to God by faith through the Spirit and listen to his voice.
For he is gentle and humble and he will teach you all you need to know.
He has moved so much in my life and a lot today and I have gained much understanding. Any disobedient and careless act can bring us to another unholy deed that can lead to many more. We are to workout our salvation. We are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please search the word of truth for yourself, do not listen to any website, family member, or church, but listen to the true word of God that liveth and abideth for ever. Please do not deny Jesus but allow him to speak to you.
Please before you read or answer below, take some time to humble yourself, draw near to God by faith, to be in the Spirit.
I ask that before answering you ask the Lord for understanding and wisdom.
May Jesus abundantly bless you with his knowledge, and many many miracles that worketh mightily in those who abideth in him. Praise the Lord!

UPDATE:
I have found many scriptures that just simply refute the doctrine I believe.
Here are two more -
James 5:19-20
Acts 5:1-11
Let no man deceive you!
If you have a answer for how these do not refute it, please post it below, thank you!

I 100% agree.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average
Christian does not understand when they read Paul:


#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).
 
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JIMINZ

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Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average
Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

You are 100% correct Jason. Christians do not understand, if they did, we would not be having this conversation.

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

I believe your focus is on the wrong LAW when it comes to understanding what Paul is actually saying.

The following is the correct relationship of the Christian in relation to The Law.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



Rom. 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul isn't talking about The Law he's talking about all sin, every sin, he's talking about The Flesh, The Old Man.

If you do not understand you have been freed from sin, you will then believe you continue to sin.

We now live under a New Law

Jas. 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas. 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Everything after that is you, gaining your own salvation (small s) because it isn't Salvation at all.

Your belief is, a Christian can lose their Salvation, then regain it and lose it again whereby, they can regain it,.....infinitum.

That is Legalism.......False Doctrine.

I personally have an assurance of Salvation for over 50 years now, because I fully understand where it is I Stand In Christ.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

What did I do to gain this Assurance of Salvation, Nothing, It was by Grace.
 
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