Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

[BNR32FAN]

What does Calvinism have to do with anything as we are discussing grace. People have the choice whether to abide in God or not. Choices have consequences. If you take the mark of the beast, will you still be saved??

God’s grace doesn’t cause us to abide my friend. That would be more like Calivinism since it suggests we do not have the ability to abide on our own. God’s grace is His forgiveness of our sin. Grace is His undeserved forgiveness. It is up to us to abide which is why we all fail. If God’s grace causes us to abide then we would not fail my friend.

 

[Loren T.]

There are many verses that support OSAS and there are no contradictions in God's Word.
So when you see verses that seem to refute OSAS you can know that they are talking about something else.

So, what you are saying is you put the verses that seem to support OSAS above the verses that don't seem to support it. And those who don't believe in OSAS do the opposite. Which is why the debate continues.

 

[Doug Melven]

So, what you are saying is you put the verses that seem to support OSAS above the verses that don't seem to support it. And those who don't believe in OSAS do the opposite. Which is why the debate continues.

I don't believe God contradicts Himself.
I also don't dismiss any verses. I don't pit verses against each other.
So if verses seem to contradict each other, they must have different subjects.

Like with John 10:28, if someone received eternal life from Jesus perished, then Jesus would not have been telling the Truth. And we know this cannot be. But there are verses that seem to contradict what Jesus said.
Like Hebrews 6:4-6 which says that certain people who have met the qualifications, if they were to fall away it would be impossible to renew them to repentance.
So it seems to say that someone who received eternal life could perish, but if that were true, Jesus would have had to be misinformed or He lied. Neither possibility will I accept. So Hebrews 6:4-6 is not saying someone who Jesus gave eternal life to perished.

 

[Oldmantook]

God’s grace doesn’t cause us to abide my friend. That would be more like Calivinism since it suggests we do not have the ability to abide on our own. God’s grace is His forgiveness of our sin. Grace is His undeserved forgiveness. It is up to us to abide which is why we all fail. If God’s grace causes us to abide then we would not fail my friend.

Grace is initially bestowed to cause us to be saved. Grace is also given after we are saved: "Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given." Jn 1:16

We can choose whether or not to abide. We can also choose to not avail ourselves of his grace which results in failure. If we avail ourselves of his grace, we will succeed. To claim that we all fail in abiding is unscriptural.
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. Jn 15:7
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. Jn 15:10
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 1 Jn 2:28
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; Phil 1:25

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Which means you can't back up what you say.

No....what it means is I wanted you to google it because I am a lazy man.....I am having trouble conjuring up the enthusiasm to debate this because I have been down this road many times and in the end I know it is a waste of valuable computer ink .....for now this is all I have and in the end it is all I need—— “ Anybody who asks to be saved WILL be SAVED.” Note that it does not say “ will be put on probation “God made this promise.It is impossible for God to break His promise.The end.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I don't believe God contradicts Himself.
I also don't dismiss any verses. I don't pit verses against each other.
So if verses seem to contradict each other, they must have different subjects.

Like with John 10:28, if someone received eternal life from Jesus perished, then Jesus would not have been telling the Truth. And we know this cannot be. But there are verses that seem to contradict what Jesus said.
Like Hebrews 6:4-6 which says that certain people who have met the qualifications, if they were to fall away it would be impossible to renew them to repentance.
So it seems to say that someone who received eternal life could perish, but if that were true, Jesus would have had to be misinformed or He lied. Neither possibility will I accept. So Hebrews 6:4-6 is not saying someone who Jesus gave eternal life to perished.

I agree ....God NEVER contradicts Himself....that is why I said some verses APPEAR to be anti-OSAS. When investigated , they all have at least one of two things in common—- they have been taken out of context or they are not talking about the Body Of Christ.

p.s. Buckeyes RULE.....Wolverines drool

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The scriptures are not contradicting each other and those aren’t accurate numbers at all. There are actually more verses pertaining to loss of salvation than eternal salvation. Pretty much every verse pertaining to loss of salvation can only apply to believers and not nonbelievers because nonbelievers don’t qualify for salvation in the first place. Also none of the early churches taught eternal salvation. Was all of Christianity wrong for the first 1500 years or was the message later corrupted? We’re the men taught by the apostles wrong and then 1500 years later someone finally got it right?

“None of the early churches taught eternal salvation” Got chapter and verse for that ? I have a Bible that says you will be saved if you simply believe the Gospel thAt can be found in 1cor15:1-4. I bet that Gospel was preached in the early church.It also says that if you add to that Gospel you are damned. Between the OSAS camp and their detractors, who do you say comes closest to Paul’s warning in regard to adding works to the Gospel?

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<BB53>No....what it means is I wanted you to google it because I am a lazy man.....I am having trouble conjuring up the enthusiasm to debate this because I have been down this road many times and in the end I know it is a waste of valuable computer ink .....for now this is all I have and in the end it is all I need—— “ Anybody who asks to be saved WILL be SAVED.” Note that it does not say “ will be put on probation “God made this promise.It is impossible for God to break His promise.The end.<end>

end

I started on this forum about 2 decades ago, I was even a staff for about 5 years. I learned early on that the same arguments and same proof texts are repeated over and over. So I started saving all my arguments which are improved over time. When some new member posts one of the same old arguments I don't have to reinvent the wheel, I look up the response on my trusty flash drive, by topic or scripture or both.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Grace is initially bestowed to cause us to be saved. Grace is also given after we are saved: "Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given." Jn 1:16

We can choose whether or not to abide. We can also choose to not avail ourselves of his grace which results in failure. If we avail ourselves of his grace, we will succeed. To claim that we all fail in abiding is unscriptural.
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. Jn 15:7
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. Jn 15:10
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 1 Jn 2:28
And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; Phil 1:25

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your definition of the word abide. The biblical definition of the word means not to depart from or to continuously remain with. The secular definition is a bit different meaning to accept or act in accordance with a rule or law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“None of the early churches taught eternal salvation” Got chapter and verse for that ? I have a Bible that says you will be saved if you simply believe the Gospel thAt can be found in 1cor15:1-4. I bet that Gospel was preached in the early church.It also says that if you add to that Gospel you are damned. Between the OSAS camp and their detractors, who do you say comes closest to Paul’s warning in regard to adding works to the Gospel?

Believing is not the only requirement for salvation. Let us not forget James 2:14-26.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone. Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-26‬

Other examples would be
John 15:1-6
Galatians 5:19-21
Matthew 3:10
Revelation 21:27
Ephesians 5:3-6
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 13:37-43
Matthew 24:45-51
Revelation 21:7-8
Matthew 18:3-10

All of these lead us to the conclusion that repentance and good works are also required for salvation. This is what the early church fathers taught. If you don’t believe me you should ask some of the Orthodox Catholics even the Roman Catholics will confirm this.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Some would point out that James is not writing to the Body Of Christ.The first verse reveals he is addressing the Twelve Tribes Of Israel.His writings are FOR us but not TO us.Paul was the apostle chosen by Jesus to give Doctrine to the Gentiles.We go to him for our marching orders .....not James.The Book Of James contains great wisdom but he was not specifically sent to minister to us Gentiles.Paul was.

 

[Ron Gurley]

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...d-by-jesus-completed-and-irrevocable.8052980/

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...e-their-spiritual-position-in-christ.8002177/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/one-saved-always-saved-eternal-security.8029530/

 

[Oldmantook]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your definition of the word abide. The biblical definition of the word means not to depart from or to continuously remain with. The secular definition is a bit different meaning to accept or act in accordance with a rule or law.

I was using the biblical definition as believers can choose to abide (remain) or not abide. Believers can choose to remain or depart from the faith.
But the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 1 Tim 4:1

 

[Butch5]

It is so good not to be a Calvinist or an Armenian. On earth all are able to lose salvation or keep it. After the judgement when we are finally free of our sinful flesh then we can say once saved always saved as only then is this complete. Our flesh persist on hoping we choose sin rather than Christ. Choose Christ.

Can you elaborate on your statement, free from our sinful flesh?

 

[marineimaging]

I was using the biblical definition as believers can choose to abide (remain) or not abide. Believers can choose to remain or depart from the faith.
But the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 1 Tim 4:1

With all due respect, I am so happy no one single verse nor persons opinion is capable of condemning us to hell. The authors wrote without chapter and verse so those letters and epistles and books are written continuously and should be examined from start to finish for context and content. Otherwise we could also take "...commanding to abstain from meats," as meaning all vegetarians are going to hell because they don't eat meat. The whole B-I-B-L-E is the World of God, in it's entirety so consider this. It is either truth or lie. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Please note that it doesn't say, "...that whosoever, who so never ever - never again after confession and baptism, don't from that day forward, ever again NOT sinneth again shall not perish but have everlasting life." Read the entire book with the understanding that the Old Testament is pointing to the future in Jesus Christ. That the 10 commandments are still valid today in that they identify what sin is so that we know what it is and what to avoid. That we are redeemed by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ and only by His Grace are we saved. And saved means eternally and without intervention by any man or angel.

 

[aiki]

All of these lead us to the conclusion that repentance and good works are also required for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

James 2:14-26, John 15:1-10, 1 John 3 Matthew 7:21-27

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Amen we are saved by grace thru faith. Are we saved by faith without love? Are we saved by faith without abiding in Christ? Are we saved by having a dead and useless faith that does not produce works or bear fruit? Being justified and receiving salvation are two different things. A person can be made right with God (justified) but if he doesn’t abide he will not receive salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't believe God contradicts Himself.
I also don't dismiss any verses. I don't pit verses against each other.
So if verses seem to contradict each other, they must have different subjects.

Like with John 10:28, if someone received eternal life from Jesus perished, then Jesus would not have been telling the Truth. And we know this cannot be. But there are verses that seem to contradict what Jesus said.
Like Hebrews 6:4-6 which says that certain people who have met the qualifications, if they were to fall away it would be impossible to renew them to repentance.
So it seems to say that someone who received eternal life could perish, but if that were true, Jesus would have had to be misinformed or He lied. Neither possibility will I accept. So Hebrews 6:4-6 is not saying someone who Jesus gave eternal life to perished.

John 10:27 Jesus says His sheep hear and follow both are stated in the present tense. So His statement in verse 28 is referring to those who continuously hear and follow. Verse 29 says no one can snatch them from The Father’s hand it doesn’t say no one can walk away from His hand. This means no outside force can take away our salvation it doesn’t mean that we can’t do anything to lose or give up our salvation.

Hebrews 6:4 doesn’t say they received eternal life. Just because someone is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they automatically receive eternal life.

 

[Oldmantook]

With all due respect, I am so happy no one single verse nor persons opinion is capable of condemning us to hell. The authors wrote without chapter and verse so those letters and epistles and books are written continuously and should be examined from start to finish for context and content. Otherwise we could also take "...commanding to abstain from meats," as meaning all vegetarians are going to hell because they don't eat meat. The whole B-I-B-L-E is the World of God, in it's entirety so consider this. It is either truth or lie. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Please note that it doesn't say, "...that whosoever, who so never ever - never again after confession and baptism, don't from that day forward, ever again NOT sinneth again shall not perish but have everlasting life." Read the entire book with the understanding that the Old Testament is pointing to the future in Jesus Christ. That the 10 commandments are still valid today in that they identify what sin is so that we know what it is and what to avoid. That we are redeemed by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ and only by His Grace are we saved. And saved means eternally and without intervention by any man or angel.

Thank you for your reply as iron sharpens iron. Presumably we all seek the truth and we are all open to correction since none of us is infallible as I've changed my belief on certain things over the years.

We know that 1 John 1:8,10 states that none of us is "perfect" as all of us still sin. Therefore the question is not whether we still sin or not but whether we choose to commit habitual sin. If one's life is characterized by "living according to the light" as it states in 1 John 1:7, then one still sins on occasion and when one does, one repents and Jesus' blood cleanses from all sin. However, the same cannot be said for the Christian who practices sin/habitual sin. Such a believer does not even have fellowship with God according to 1 John 1:6. As contrasted with walking in the light, believers who instead choose to walk in darkness have no assurance of salvation and their sins being cleansed. Their continued practice of sin demonstrates that they have not truly repented because they keep sinning. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness. That is why Paul warned in Romans 8:13 that those brethren who live according to the flesh - WILL DIE. Paul cannot be referring to physical death here because we all physically die no matter what kind of lifestyle we live so Paul can only be referring to spiritual death - no eternal life. James stated the same thing when he wrote in James 5:19-20 that whoever turns a sinning brother away from his error, will save his soul from death. As you know, grace is not a license to sin. Those that sin habitually face spiritual death.