a thought

[The Righterzpen]

Because I wanted you to give me the verses you think best support your argument. I am not having a discussion with myself I am having one with you. If you don’t want to do the work to support your argument then don’t expect me to.

You are full of pride and arrogance, assuming no-one knows as much as you do. So therefore you are looking for people to argue with over progressive sanctification, because you espouse the idea that as soon as you believed you have been made perfect; and thus than you deny that you still sin. And if you deny this - than the truth is not in you. 1 John 1:18

Anyone who knows their theology understands that to say what you're saying would mean that as soon as you believe; you are sinless as Christ was - because the final end of perfected sanctification is no sin - which does not happen in this life.

So therefore - if this is what you are propagating? You are a heretic. I don't care how many years you claim you studied the Bible or who you state that you sat under. You can beat the air with what ever arguments you wish. You are not fulfilling the commission to take the gospel into the world and edify the saints.

There are two types of zealots in this world. Ones who strive to teach others, so that those others would know God and be strengthened in faith and ones who want their ego stroked by being told they are right.

Just from the short conversations I've had with you. You fit definition #2.

 

[twin1954]

You are full of pride and arrogance, assuming no-one knows as much as you do. So therefore you are looking for people to argue with over progressive sanctification, because you espouse the idea that as soon as you believed you have been made perfect; and thus than you deny that you still sin. And if you deny this - than the truth is not in you. 1 John 1:18

Anyone who knows their theology understands that to say what you're saying would mean that as soon as you believe; you are sinless as Christ was - because the final end of perfected sanctification is no sin - which does not happen in this life.

So therefore - if this is what you are propagating? You are a heretic. I don't care how many years you claim you studied the Bible or who you state that you sat under. You can beat the air with what ever arguments you wish. You are not fulfilling the commission to take the gospel into the world and edify the saints.

There are two types of zealots in this world. Ones who strive to teach others, so that those others would know God and be strengthened in faith and ones who want their ego stroked by being told they are right.

Just from the short conversations I've had with you. You fit definition #2.

You are apparently not actually reading my posts. If you would not jump to conclusions and read what I am saying then maybe we can have a civil and mutually beneficial talk.

What I actually said was that I, as well as all believers, are people of two natures. The old man which is me is nothing but sin. The new man,which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, Eph. 4:24, is without sin. He cannot for His seed remains in him. 1John3:9. Please look up the references before you judge.

Now I will make no argument that I am not arrogant. I will let those who know me speak if they desire. But is it just me who is arrogant and prideful? Would a humble and nonjudgmental person make the declaration of guilt as you have?

I was called, gifted and sent to preach and teach the things of Christ. Were you?

Now that we have both had our rants can we be civil and beneficial to one another? This is the last time I will ask.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You are apparently not actually reading my posts. If you would not jump to conclusions and read what I am saying then maybe we can have a civil and mutually beneficial talk.

What I actually said was that I, as well as all believers, are people of two natures. The old man which is me is nothing but sin. The new man,which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, Eph. 4:24, is without sin. He cannot for His seed remains in him. 1John3:9. Please look up the references before you judge.

Now I will make no argument that I am not arrogant. I will let those who know me speak if they desire. But is it just me who is arrogant and prideful? Would a humble and nonjudgmental person make the declaration of guilt as you have?

I was called, gifted and sent to preach and teach the things of Christ. Were you?

Now that we have both had our rants can we be civil and beneficial to one another? This is the last time I will ask.

So, have I misjudged you?

Do you believe you are without sin?

Let's take a look at Ephesians 4:24 in it's context:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

This passage certainly appears to me to be speaking of progressive sanctification. Let's break down verse 24 a little further; looking at it in the Greek.

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

No where in this verse does it say the new man you are to become is without sin.

Next - 1 John 3:9

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(Take note: the elect are not like Christ until He appears!)

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

(Remember the verse I quoted to you about Christ learning obedience? Same idea.)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

(Note this verse is talking about sin from a judicial sense as applied to the law. Keep that in mind for the rest of this passage.)

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Note all these underlined words are in the Greek - continuous action. Note that this is not saying a believer does not sin post regeneration; because verse 2 says specifically; "it does not yet appear what (believers) shall be..... for when He appears...". The perfection of not sinning, does not occur until the new heavens and new earth. The Scripture is quite clear about this!

You picked great verses to prove my point!

So question again - have I misjudged? Apparently not, seeing how it is obvious these Scriptures are not saying what you claim they do.

"But is it just me who is arrogant and prideful? Would a humble and nonjudgmental person make the declaration of guilt as you have?"

Let's have Jesus answer that question. Did Jesus ever call people out on their false doctrine? Ehhh YES HE DID! So I guess this means Jesus was judgmental and arrogant. (That was not loving Lord - s0... shut up!)

And here is the epitome of humility! (Jesus, You better pay attention! You judgmental and arrogant Redeemer You!)

"I was called, gifted and sent to preach and teach the things of Christ. Were you?"

Ahhh - let's see what the Scripture says about what believers are called to!

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 15:16

(Gee, looks like I am called, sent to preach and teach!)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

What I actually said was that I, as well as all believers, are people of two natures. The old man which is me is nothing but sin. The new man,which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, Eph. 4:24, is without sin. He cannot for His seed remains in him. 1John3:9.

Well said, the Holy Spirit indwelling in a believer cannot sin. In the atonement Christ paid for all of our sins, past, present, and future. We are declared righteous by God, because of Christ and not ourselves. We are a people of two natures, it is clear to me in reading Romans chapter 7. We are like walking contradictions, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." constantly at war with ourselves and unseen spiritual forces (Ephesians chapter 6). Each and every one of us would fail, except God does not and never will fail to persevere with and preserve His people. Thank you Jesus for the victory we have in you, for the hope we have in your victory over sin and death!

 

[twin1954]

So, have I misjudged you?

Am I arrogant and prideful? Probably more than I know. But it isn’t my intention. The internet is a difficult place to convey personality. It is most often argumentative and derisive. Disagreements that could be solved easily most often become arguments rather than civil discussion. If I have offended you I apologize. Could I be wrong on some things, most certainly. But I do not believe that I am in this instance.

Do you believe you are without sin?

Not in myself I am not. Everything I do is mixed with sin, my best preaching had pride mixed in. I am a wretch who cannot get away from this body of stinking death. But I do have a new nature that is without sin. It is Christ in me the hope of glory. He rules and sin no longer has dominion over me. I find that I am as Paul in Rom. 7

Let's take a look at Ephesians 4:24 in it's context:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

This passage certainly appears to me to be speaking of progressive sanctification. Let's break down verse 24 a little further; looking at it in the Greek.

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

No where in this verse does it say the new man you are to become is without sin.

I don’t know where you got your Greek from but it is mistaken. The verse in the Greek says exactly what the translators of the KJV and others have it. I am not an expert in Greek but I do have some skills and find that I am in agreement with the translators. The passage, in its context, is speaking of not allowing the old man, the Gentile that did all of the things mentioned, to have a place. Paul is simply telling then not to act as they once did but to live under the rule of the new man. No progressive sanctification here.

Next - 1 John 3:9

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(Take note: the elect are not like Christ until He appears!)

John is only pointing out that we will have glorified bodies like Him. We do not know what that is like now but we will. You are inserting something that isn’t there.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

(Remember the verse I quoted to you about Christ learning obedience? Same idea.)

Not really. John is speaking of us setting ourselves apart, purify as in ceremonially. It is another form of the word sanctify or set apart.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

(Note this verse is talking about sin from a judicial sense as applied to the law. Keep that in mind for the rest of this passage.)

Agree.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

John here is speaking of us not having sin. If he were speaking of Christ not having sin he would have used the word for was, eimi.

6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Note all these underlined words are in the Greek - continuous action. Note that this is not saying a believer does not sin post regeneration; because verse 2 says specifically; "it does not yet appear what (believers) shall be..... for when He appears...". The perfection of not sinning, does not occur until the new heavens and new earth. The Scripture is quite clear about this!

You have not explained how verse 9 doesn’t say what it says. Nor have you shown how the context supports progressive sanctification. You assume it I am afraid.

You picked great verses to prove my point!

So question again - have I misjudged? Apparently not, seeing how it is obvious these Scriptures are not saying what you claim they do.

"But is it just me who is arrogant and prideful? Would a humble and nonjudgmental person make the declaration of guilt as you have?"

Let's have Jesus answer that question. Did Jesus ever call people out on their false doctrine? Ehhh YES HE DID! So I guess this means Jesus was judgmental and arrogant. (That was not loving Lord - s0... shut up!)

And here is the epitome of humility! (Jesus, You better pay attention! You judgmental and arrogant Redeemer You!)

This is not worthy of you so I will ignore it.

“I was called, gifted and sent to preach and teach the things of Christ. Were you?"

Ahhh - let's see what the Scripture says about what believers are called to!

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 15:16

(Gee, looks like I am called, sent to preach and teach!)

Who was He speaking to? It was the Apostles wasn’t it?
Let’s look once more at Eph. 4.

Ephesians 4:7-13 (KJV) 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You might notice that I removed verses 9-10. I did so because it is a parenthetical statement which can be removed without damage to the thought.

So now what does the verse say? It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded.

 

[twin1954]

I should probably try to clear up the water I have muddied.

I am not saying that we don’t grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. We most certainly do and it is a process. But it isn’t biblical sanctification. Holiness is directly connected to sanctification and there can be no degrees in holiness. You either are or you are not.

Now growing in grace and knowledge of Christ is something different from sanctification. The Lord Jesus grew but He didn’t become more holy. We grow in faith as we learn of Him. We learn to trust Him more and follow Him more but we do not become more holy. We seek to be without sin in this body and desire holiness but we still carry the dead and stinking old man with us. Our thoughts are full of sin and we seek to renew our minds. But that is growing not sanctification.

Now just so you don’t think it is just a matter of semantics allow me to show you why it is not.

Puritan Reformed Progressive Sanctification was founded on the idea of desiring holiness in this life. Knowing that it cannot be achieved as long as we are in this body they came up with Progressive Sanctification. The teaching is that as we progress we become more and more holy until we are ripe for Heaven.

As much as I admire the Puritans on many things this is a harmful doctrine. It denies the continuing existence of the old nature in us. It set us up to look for evidence for assurance instead of to Christ alone. It makes us judgemental of others and brings about a subtle works conditioned salvation. It makes the weak in faith to question their salvation and the strong to be self-righteousness. This is why it is important to know the difference between sanctification and growing.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Am I arrogant and prideful? Probably more than I know. But it isn’t my intention. The internet is a difficult place to convey personality. It is most often argumentative and derisive. Disagreements that could be solved easily most often become arguments rather than civil discussion. If I have offended you I apologize. Could I be wrong on some things, most certainly. But I do not believe that I am in this instance.

Not in myself I am not. Everything I do is mixed with sin, my best preaching had pride mixed in. I am a wretch who cannot get away from this body of stinking death. But I do have a new nature that is without sin. It is Christ in me the hope of glory. He rules and sin no longer has dominion over me. I find that I am as Paul in Rom. 7

I don’t know where you got your Greek from but it is mistaken. The verse in the Greek says exactly what the translators of the KJV and others have it. I am not an expert in Greek but I do have some skills and find that I am in agreement with the translators. The passage, in its context, is speaking of not allowing the old man, the Gentile that did all of the things mentioned, to have a place. Paul is simply telling then not to act as they once did but to live under the rule of the new man. No progressive sanctification here.
John is only pointing out that we will have glorified bodies like Him. We do not know what that is like now but we will. You are inserting something that isn’t there.

Not really. John is speaking of us setting ourselves apart, purify as in ceremonially. It is another form of the word sanctify or set apart.


Agree.

John here is speaking of us not having sin. If he were speaking of Christ not having sin he would have used the word for was, eimi.

You have not explained how verse 9 doesn’t say what it says. Nor have you shown how the context supports progressive sanctification. You assume it I am afraid.
This is not worthy of you so I will ignore it.

Who was He speaking to? It was the Apostles wasn’t it?
Let’s look once more at Eph. 4.

Ephesians 4:7-13 (KJV) 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You might notice that I removed verses 9-10. I did so because it is a parenthetical statement which can be removed without damage to the thought.

So now what does the verse say? It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded.

Are you more prideful and arrogant than you probably realize? As you come across on this forum you certainly are!

And that you finally confess that everything you do is mixed with sin. at least there's hope there that you are not a heretic in the regard of saying that you have no sin.

Now to say that of the new nature that's composed of the Holy Spirit doesn't sin is accurate. But of what the Holy Ghost has cleaved Himself too in the spirit of the believer, some part of that "old man" is still subject to the issues inherent in the fallen nature that comes with being the seed of Adam. That part does not get renewed until the final resurrection and this is why believers still sin. Do they continue presently in a lifestyle of sin. No they don't and that's what those passages that talk about "sinning no more" mean.

It is very clear from 1 John 3:2 that "it does not yet appear what we shall be".

Where did I get my Greek from in the translation of: Ephesians 4:24

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

This translation comes from comparing these words of what they are translated as in other places in the Bible. You can deduce this simply by looking up the Strong's numbers. (It's not that difficult.)

The word "righteousness" used in the King James means "judicial justification". One is "resting" in the "judicial justification" that was proclaimed from the foundations of the world.

The phrase at the end of the verse "and true holiness" means something proclaimed (something ordained / holy) and "true" means to be manifest in the physical world. What this means is that the judicial justification that God declared in eternity has become manifest (in the believer) in the real world, because they no longer live a lifestyle of sin as they once had.

This is why I said this verse does not say that the new man one is to become is without sin.

1 John 3:3?

Do believers anywhere in the New Testament "ceremonially purify" themselves? No they don't. We have two ordinances in the New Testament. That's it. Do either of these "ceremonially purify" believers? No they don't.

Baptism, is a proclamation of "this is what I believe" and is only done once. To apply 1 John 3:3 to baptism would not make sense in the context of this verse. LOL

Do believers "ceremonially purify" themselves in communion? LOL No. That is a remembrance of what Jesus did.

1 John 3:5?

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

LOL - you wrecked your interpretation of this one! LOL. First "He was manifest to take away our sins." Who was manifest to take away our sins? Were we manifest to take away our own sins? Next section of the verse "in Him is no sin." This "him" is referring to "he (who) was manifest to take away our sins".

Secondly what the verse actually says, should clue you in to who it is referring to. "in Him is no sin". There is only one person who's ever existed on this earth who "in him is no sin". Do you need a clue as to who that is?

My sarcastic comment about Jesus pointing out someone's error; (meaning He must have been arrogant and judgmental) is not "worthy of (me) so (you) will ignore it" ??? LOL
(Ehh.... not sure what that means; but OK?)

Now Mark 16:15 "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Your saying this verse only applies to the apostles? Yet, if you look at verse 14 ".... because they believed not them who'd seen him after he was risen..." the implication being that those who'd seen him after the resurrection, were in the room with them. Who were these people. These were the women!

So sorry again. This phrase is most often interpreted to mean "all believers" are to "preach the gospel to every creature".

But now since you mentioned Ephesians 4:7-13 (You misquoted that too!) "It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded."

LOL - that's isn't what it says though!

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of ......... (wait for it)
CHRIST!

Who's the gift? Can we say - JESUS!
sorry preacher it's not you!
Maybe a little humility is in order here!

8. "....... he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Note the verse does not say "gave gifts unto ... some men".
Also, the word "men" in this passage is the word "anthropos" Which is where we get our term "anthropology" from. Anthropos / anthropology is not a specific to male gender term.

 

[twin1954]

Are you more prideful and arrogant than you probably realize? As you come across on this forum you certainly are!

And that you finally confess that everything you do is mixed with sin. at least there's hope there that you are not a heretic in the regard of saying that you have no sin.

Now to say that of the new nature that's composed of the Holy Spirit doesn't sin is accurate. But of what the Holy Ghost has cleaved Himself too in the spirit of the believer, some part of that "old man" is still subject to the issues inherent in the fallen nature that comes with being the seed of Adam. That part does not get renewed until the final resurrection and this is why believers still sin. Do they continue presently in a lifestyle of sin. No they don't and that's what those passages that talk about "sinning no more" mean.

It is very clear from 1 John 3:2 that "it does not yet appear what we shall be".

Where did I get my Greek from in the translation of: Ephesians 4:24

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

This translation comes from comparing these words of what they are translated as in other places in the Bible. You can deduce this simply by looking up the Strong's numbers. (It's not that difficult.)

The word "righteousness" used in the King James means "judicial justification". One is "resting" in the "judicial justification" that was proclaimed from the foundations of the world.

The phrase at the end of the verse "and true holiness" means something proclaimed (something ordained / holy) and "true" means to be manifest in the physical world. What this means is that the judicial justification that God declared in eternity has become manifest (in the believer) in the real world, because they no longer live a lifestyle of sin as they once had.

This is why I said this verse does not say that the new man one is to become is without sin.

1 John 3:3?

Do believers anywhere in the New Testament "ceremonially purify" themselves? No they don't. We have two ordinances in the New Testament. That's it. Do either of these "ceremonially purify" believers? No they don't.

Baptism, is a proclamation of "this is what I believe" and is only done once. To apply 1 John 3:3 to baptism would not make sense in the context of this verse. LOL

Do believers "ceremonially purify" themselves in communion? LOL No. That is a remembrance of what Jesus did.

1 John 3:5?

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

LOL - you wrecked your interpretation of this one! LOL. First "He was manifest to take away our sins." Who was manifest to take away our sins? Were we manifest to take away our own sins? Next section of the verse "in Him is no sin." This "him" is referring to "he (who) was manifest to take away our sins".

Secondly what the verse actually says, should clue you in to who it is referring to. "in Him is no sin". There is only one person who's ever existed on this earth who "in him is no sin". Do you need a clue as to who that is?

My sarcastic comment about Jesus pointing out someone's error; (meaning He must have been arrogant and judgmental) is not "worthy of (me) so (you) will ignore it" ??? LOL
(Ehh.... not sure what that means; but OK?)

Now Mark 16:15 "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Your saying this verse only applies to the apostles? Yet, if you look at verse 14 ".... because they believed not them who'd seen him after he was risen..." the implication being that those who'd seen him after the resurrection, were in the room with them. Who were these people. These were the women!

So sorry again. This phrase is most often interpreted to mean "all believers" are to "preach the gospel to every creature".

But now since you mentioned Ephesians 4:7-13 (You misquoted that too!) "It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded."

LOL - that's isn't what it says though!

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of ......... (wait for it)
CHRIST!

Who's the gift? Can we say - JESUS!
sorry preacher it's not you!
Maybe a little humility is in order here!

8. "....... he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Note the verse does not say "gave gifts unto ... some men".
Also, the word "men" in this passage is the word "anthropos" Which is where we get our term "anthropology" from. Anthropos / anthropology is not a specific to male gender term.

Very good. Now we can have a discussion. I will get back to you as soon as I can.

 

[twin1954]

Are you more prideful and arrogant than you probably realize? As you come across on this forum you certainly are!

And that you finally confess that everything you do is mixed with sin. at least there's hope there that you are not a heretic in the regard of saying that you have no sin.

Now to say that of the new nature that's composed of the Holy Spirit doesn't sin is accurate. But of what the Holy Ghost has cleaved Himself too in the spirit of the believer, some part of that "old man" is still subject to the issues inherent in the fallen nature that comes with being the seed of Adam. That part does not get renewed until the final resurrection and this is why believers still sin. Do they continue presently in a lifestyle of sin. No they don't and that's what those passages that talk about "sinning no more" mean.

It is very clear from 1 John 3:2 that "it does not yet appear what we shall be".

Where did I get my Greek from in the translation of: Ephesians 4:24

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

This translation comes from comparing these words of what they are translated as in other places in the Bible. You can deduce this simply by looking up the Strong's numbers. (It's not that difficult.)

The word "righteousness" used in the King James means "judicial justification". One is "resting" in the "judicial justification" that was proclaimed from the foundations of the world.

The phrase at the end of the verse "and true holiness" means something proclaimed (something ordained / holy) and "true" means to be manifest in the physical world. What this means is that the judicial justification that God declared in eternity has become manifest (in the believer) in the real world, because they no longer live a lifestyle of sin as they once had.

This is why I said this verse does not say that the new man one is to become is without sin.

1 John 3:3?

Do believers anywhere in the New Testament "ceremonially purify" themselves? No they don't. We have two ordinances in the New Testament. That's it. Do either of these "ceremonially purify" believers? No they don't.

Baptism, is a proclamation of "this is what I believe" and is only done once. To apply 1 John 3:3 to baptism would not make sense in the context of this verse. LOL

Do believers "ceremonially purify" themselves in communion? LOL No. That is a remembrance of what Jesus did.

1 John 3:5?

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

LOL - you wrecked your interpretation of this one! LOL. First "He was manifest to take away our sins." Who was manifest to take away our sins? Were we manifest to take away our own sins? Next section of the verse "in Him is no sin." This "him" is referring to "he (who) was manifest to take away our sins".

Secondly what the verse actually says, should clue you in to who it is referring to. "in Him is no sin". There is only one person who's ever existed on this earth who "in him is no sin". Do you need a clue as to who that is?

My sarcastic comment about Jesus pointing out someone's error; (meaning He must have been arrogant and judgmental) is not "worthy of (me) so (you) will ignore it" ??? LOL
(Ehh.... not sure what that means; but OK?)

Now Mark 16:15 "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Your saying this verse only applies to the apostles? Yet, if you look at verse 14 ".... because they believed not them who'd seen him after he was risen..." the implication being that those who'd seen him after the resurrection, were in the room with them. Who were these people. These were the women!

So sorry again. This phrase is most often interpreted to mean "all believers" are to "preach the gospel to every creature".

But now since you mentioned Ephesians 4:7-13 (You misquoted that too!) "It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded."

LOL - that's isn't what it says though!

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of ......... (wait for it)
CHRIST!

Who's the gift? Can we say - JESUS!
sorry preacher it's not you!
Maybe a little humility is in order here!

8. "....... he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Note the verse does not say "gave gifts unto ... some men".
Also, the word "men" in this passage is the word "anthropos" Which is where we get our term "anthropology" from. Anthropos / anthropology is not a specific to male gender term.

I am in the Jacksonville area of Fla. would it be possible for me to meet you some time? I would love to talk to you face to face.

I am married for 45 years now so no worries about me. I will bring my wife along if we can meet. Let me know.

 

[twin1954]

I am in the Jacksonville area of Fla. would it be possible for me to meet you some time? I would love to talk to you face to face.

I am married for 45 years now so no worries about me. I will bring my wife along if we can meet. Let me know.

I am sorry I should’ve looked at your profile before I mentioned meeting.

 

[twin1954]

I am in the Jacksonville area of Fla. would it be possible for me to meet you some time? I would love to talk to you face to face.

I am married for 45 years now so no worries about me. I will bring my wife along if we can meet. Let me know.

Are you anywhere near Princeton NJ? I have a good friend that pastors a great church in the area.

 

[twin1954]

Are you more prideful and arrogant than you probably realize? As you come across on this forum you certainly are!

Yeah I probably do. Nothing I can do about it though. I try but some folks just seem to take offense right away. I would much rather have these discussions face to face but that just isn’t possible for the most part. I have met a couple face to face though.

And that you finally confess that everything you do is mixed with sin. at least there's hope there that you are not a heretic in the regard of saying that you have no sin.

My only hope is that the Lord Jesus Christ is my everything. I must have Him as my all in all. If He isn’t my Righteousness, holiness, justification and obedience I am rightfully lost and deserve everlasting torment. He is everything to me. I must have Him.

Now to say that of the new nature that's composed of the Holy Spirit doesn't sin is accurate. But of what the Holy Ghost has cleaved Himself too in the spirit of the believer, some part of that "old man" is still subject to the issues inherent in the fallen nature that comes with being the seed of Adam. That part does not get renewed until the final resurrection and this is why believers still sin. Do they continue presently in a lifestyle of sin. No they don't and that's what those passages that talk about "sinning no more" mean.

I agree. Yet all we do is mixed with sin. It isn’t a matter of if this thing is sin or that thing is sin. The question is nonsense. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Do I try not to sin? Absolutely! But sin is present with me. Does my sin bother me? Absolutely! That is why I must rest in Him and quit working to feel better about myself. Resting in Him, because I need nothing more, I am free to work. I no longer have to try to find assurance or peace from what I do or don’t do. I no longer have to check myself to see if I am progressing as I should be. Now I can walk by the Spirit and not by sight. I am free from all bondage and free to do what He has called me to do.

It is very clear from 1 John 3:2 that "it does not yet appear what we shall be"

isn’t that what I said?

Where did I get my Greek from in the translation of: Ephesians 4:24

And to put on (as you'd put on a garment) the new man, this joined to God who created (him) resting justified having been ordained (by decree of God) that which is real (truthfully manifest in reality).

This translation comes from comparing these words of what they are translated as in other places in the Bible. You can deduce this simply by looking up the Strong's numbers. (It's not that difficult.)

Which translation? It doesn’t agree with my own translation nor the majority of others. Word studies can be useful but also dangerous. We must be careful to see to it that it agrees with it’s context. Certainly my understanding of the word sanctify comes from a study of the use of the word throughout Scripture but the Greek tends to be much more connected to context and tenses than the English. Most often the English cannot properly convey the thought. Greek is a tool in the hands of one who can properly use it. But it has never once solved any doctrinal disputes. We interpret the Greek just as we do any language.

The word "righteousness" used in the King James means "judicial justification". One is "resting" in the "judicial justification" that was proclaimed from the foundations of the world.

So you hold to eternal justification as I do?

The phrase at the end of the verse "and true holiness" means something proclaimed (something ordained / holy) and "true" means to be manifest in the physical world. What this means is that the judicial justification that God declared in eternity has become manifest (in the believer) in the real world, because they no longer live a lifestyle of sin as they once had.

Now it is you who is mixing justification with sanctification. We are justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Sanctification is not by imputation. It is a one time act of God in and for the believer. It comes by way of the new birth. We are justified by imputation, we are sanctified by the new creation.

This is why I said this verse does not say that the new man one is to become is without sin.

But the preponderance of the teaching of the New Testament say differently. I have already given you verses to show this.

1 John 3:3?

Do believers anywhere in the New Testament "ceremonially purify" themselves? No they don't. We have two ordinances in the New Testament. That's it. Do either of these "ceremonially purify" believers? No they don't.

Look the word up. It isn’t hard. Use Strong’s numbers. Wink.

No they do not ceremonials purify themselves. Go back and read what I said again. It simply means we set apart ourselves.

Baptism, is a proclamation of "this is what I believe" and is only done once. To apply 1 John 3:3 to baptism would not make sense in the context of this verse. LOL

Actually baptism is an identification with Christ in His life, death, burial and resurrection. It is our public proclamation of our faith in Christ.

Where did I say it applies? Baptism has nothing to do with purification. It is simply an outward sign of an inward faith.

The word purify in this context means to set apart. It is a form of the word sanctify. Look it up.

Do believers "ceremonially purify" themselves in communion? LOL No. That is a remembrance of what Jesus did.

Of course not. Communion is a sign of faith. We take of His body and His blood. It is only a sign but it shows what faith is. By symbol we take into our bodies Him and He becomes a part of us.

1 John 3:5?

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

LOL - you wrecked your interpretation of this one! LOL. First "He was manifest to take away our sins." Who was manifest to take away our sins? Were we manifest to take away our own sins? Next section of the verse "in Him is no sin." This "him" is referring to "he (who) was manifest to take away our sins".

Is it? If John had meant the lord Jesus when said “in Himis no sin” why didn’t he use the word for was? Johnistelling us that being united to Christ there is no sin in us. God sees no sin in us. We are clean. We are holy. We are righteous. It isn’t a just a judicial salvation but one with shoe leather. Christ is all.

Secondly what the verse actually says, should clue you in to who it is referring to. "in Him is no sin". There is only one person who's ever existed on this earth who "in him is no sin". Do you need a clue as to who that is?

Not really. Who is John speaking to? Believers of course. We know that the Lord Jesus had no sin. Why would he need to tell us that again? He was the perfect Lamb of God. We rest in that fact.

No John is saying exactly what I told you.

My sarcastic comment about Jesus pointing out someone's error; (meaning He must have been arrogant and judgmental) is not "worthy of (me) so (you) will ignore it" ??? LOL
(Ehh.... not sure what that means; but OK?)

It means that I believe you to be better than to stoop so low. I respect you. I have high regard for you. You are a very intelligent and thinking person.

Now Mark 16:15 "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Your saying this verse only applies to the apostles? Yet, if you look at verse 14 ".... because they believed not them who'd seen him after he was risen..." the implication being that those who'd seen him after the resurrection, were in the room with them. Who were these people. These were the women!

So sorry again. This phrase is most often interpreted to mean "all believers" are to "preach the gospel to every creature".

Still you cannot deny that some of us are called specifically to preach His Gospel. I hope you do not believe that women are to be pastors/teachers. Women are excluded from that office. I have no problem with the elder women teaching the younger. That is biblical. But women teaching the elders is unbiblical.

If this is a problem for you then you have a problem with authority. I am not saying that I have authority over you. I have none.

But now since you mentioned Ephesians 4:7-13 (You misquoted that too!) "It says that those who are called to preach His Gospel are a gift unto those to whom they are given. Oh, and not to offend you, but women are excluded."

I didn’t say that women are excluded from receiving gifts. I said women are excluded from being one of the named gifts. I didn’t misquote it I simply copied it from BlueLetterBible. It agrees with my KJV.

I did take out the parenthetical statement as I said. That isn’t a misquote but a justified act. Ask any English teacher?

LOL - that's isn't what it says though!

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of ......... (wait for it)
CHRIST!

Who's the gift? Can we say - JESUS!
sorry preacher it's not you!
Maybe a little humility is in order here!

You need to read the passage over again. It is, if you know anything about English grammar, speaking of the gifts not of the Giver. Yes Christ is a gift to us but He is not the subject of the verb given.

8. "....... he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Note the verse does not say "gave gifts unto ... some men".
Also, the word "men" in this passage is the word "

anthropos" Which is where we get our term "anthropology" from. Anthropos / anthropology is not a specific to male gender term.

You are really stretching it here. Do you honestly think me me an inbicile?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yeah I probably do. Nothing I can do about it though. I try but some folks just seem to take offense right away. I would much rather have these discussions face to face but that just isn’t possible for the most part. I have met a couple face to face though.

My only hope is that the Lord Jesus Christ is my everything. I must have Him as my all in all. If He isn’t my Righteousness, holiness, justification and obedience I am rightfully lost and deserve everlasting torment. He is everything to me. I must have Him.

I agree. Yet all we do is mixed with sin. It isn’t a matter of if this thing is sin or that thing is sin. The question is nonsense. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Do I try not to sin? Absolutely! But sin is present with me. Does my sin bother me? Absolutely! That is why I must rest in Him and quit working to feel better about myself. Resting in Him, because I need nothing more, I am free to work. I no longer have to try to find assurance or peace from what I do or don’t do. I no longer have to check myself to see if I am progressing as I should be. Now I can walk by the Spirit and not by sight. I am free from all bondage and free to do what He has called me to do.

isn’t that what I said?

Which translation? It doesn’t agree with my own translation nor the majority of others. Word studies can be useful but also dangerous. We must be careful to see to it that it agrees with it’s context. Certainly my understanding of the word sanctify comes from a study of the use of the word throughout Scripture but the Greek tends to be much more connected to context and tenses than the English. Most often the English cannot properly convey the thought. Greek is a tool in the hands of one who can properly use it. But it has never once solved any doctrinal disputes. We interpret the Greek just as we do any language.

So you hold to eternal justification as I do?

Now it is you who is mixing justification with sanctification. We are justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Sanctification is not by imputation. It is a one time act of God in and for the believer. It comes by way of the new birth. We are justified by imputation, we are sanctified by the new creation.

But the preponderance of the teaching of the New Testament say differently. I have already given you verses to show this.

Look the word up. It isn’t hard. Use Strong’s numbers. Wink.

No they do not ceremonials purify themselves. Go back and read what I said again. It simply means we set apart ourselves.
Actually baptism is an identification with Christ in His life, death, burial and resurrection. It is our public proclamation of our faith in Christ.

Where did I say it applies? Baptism has nothing to do with purification. It is simply an outward sign of an inward faith.

The word purify in this context means to set apart. It is a form of the word sanctify. Look it up.

Of course not. Communion is a sign of faith. We take of His body and His blood. It is only a sign but it shows what faith is. By symbol we take into our bodies Him and He becomes a part of us.

Is it? If John had meant the lord Jesus when said “in Himis no sin” why didn’t he use the word for was? Johnistelling us that being united to Christ there is no sin in us. God sees no sin in us. We are clean. We are holy. We are righteous. It isn’t a just a judicial salvation but one with shoe leather. Christ is all.

Not really. Who is John speaking to? Believers of course. We know that the Lord Jesus had no sin. Why would he need to tell us that again? He was the perfect Lamb of God. We rest in that fact.

No John is saying exactly what I told you.

It means that I believe you to be better than to stoop so low. I respect you. I have high regard for you. You are a very intelligent and thinking person.

Still you cannot deny that some of us are called specifically to preach His Gospel. I hope you do not believe that women are to be pastors/teachers. Women are excluded from that office. I have no problem with the elder women teaching the younger. That is biblical. But women teaching the elders is unbiblical.

If this is a problem for you then you have a problem with authority. I am not saying that I have authority over you. I have none.

I didn’t say that women are excluded from receiving gifts. I said women are excluded from being one of the named gifts. I didn’t misquote it I simply copied it from BlueLetterBible. It agrees with my KJV.

I did take out the parenthetical statement as I said. That isn’t a misquote but a justified act. Ask any English teacher?

You need to read the passage over again. It is, if you know anything about English grammar, speaking of the gifts not of the Giver. Yes Christ is a gift to us but He is not the subject of the verb given.

You are really stretching it here. Do you honestly think me me an inbicile?

The Lord rebuke you; because you are dishonest about all of this and you won't listen to anyone else. You flip flop back and forth and think to try and flatter me, but it doesn't work. I see through that.

Then you will not be strait about what you say. You say one thing. I quote you directly on it and then you say: "I never said that." Dishonesty all around.

May God have mercy on your soul. I'm done speaking to you.

 

[twin1954]

The Lord rebuke you; because you are dishonest about all of this and you won't listen to anyone else. You flip flop back and forth and think to try and flatter me, but it doesn't work. I see through that.

Then you will not be strait about what you say. You say one thing. I quote you directly on it and then you say: "I never said that." Dishonesty all around.

May God have mercy on your soul. I'm done speaking to you.

Nothing I have said contradicts anything I said before. I am sorry you feel the way you do. If you are going to judge then judge righteously. I will answer to God without fear.

 

[twin1954]

May the Spirit open your eyes.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hey @twin1954 - as my husband disallowed debate with you (which is our definite impression of your intention through your posting) I'm just making a short post here..

You said you don't believe in progressive sanctification but there are three tenses to the word saved in scripture.

We are saved (past tense) we are being saved (present/current tense) we will be saved (future tense)

These three tenses show us three things that we call 1) Justification (when we initially come to Jesus and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit) 2) sancification (which we see as a process where we grow in knowledge and become more Christ-like throughout our lives) and 3) our glorification upon our death where we meet our Lord in heaven.

Sanctification is a process. We all have things we have to work on. We don't magically become perfect people when we are initially justified.

Our lives show progress throughout our entire lives, so we see it as a process.. where I am now, four years after my initial justification, is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was four years ago, and in 4 more years I'm sure I'll have grown in Christ even more.

This is why we see as a process. No, we aren't doing major sins, being saved is a life changing, life altering experience, but while the seed of God in us can't sin, our flesh still can so we have to learn how to walk in the Spirit - and as time goes on we get better at it and work on more and more of our own sins as we recognise what they are.

Okay, I said short post and went on and on, so I'll finish here and wish you well. God bless.

Here is a link so you can read more of what I was saying.

The 3 Tenses of the Gospel

 

[twin1954]

Hey @twin1954 - as my husband disallowed debate with you (which is our definite impression of your intention through your posting) I'm just making a short post here..

You said you don't believe in progressive sanctification but there are three tenses to the word saved in scripture.

We are saved (past tense) we are being saved (present/current tense) we will be saved (future tense)

These three tenses show us three things that we call 1) Justification (when we initially come to Jesus and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit) 2) sancification (which we see as a process where we grow in knowledge and become more Christ-like throughout our lives) and 3) our glorification upon our death where we meet our Lord in heaven.

Sanctification is a process. We all have things we have to work on. We don't magically become perfect people when we are initially justified.

Our lives show progress throughout our entire lives, so we see it as a process.. where I am now, four years after my initial justification, is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was four years ago, and in 4 more years I'm sure I'll have grown in Christ even more.

This is why we see as a process. No, we aren't doing major sins, being saved is a life changing, life altering experience, but while the seed of God in us can't sin, our flesh still can so we have to learn how to walk in the Spirit - and as time goes on we get better at it and work on more and more of our own sins as we recognise what they are.

Okay, I said short post and went on and on, so I'll finish here and wish you well. God bless.

Here is a link so you can read more of what I was saying.

The 3 Tenses of the Gospel

Since you didn’t ask a question I will respond with a hope that you and your husband are blessed.

 

[twin1954]

I know that what I am espousing is not only new to most but not popular with most. That is ok. I am only trying to give you the biblical view. Think about it. I trust the Spirit of God to show you truth.

 

[twin1954]

Hey @twin1954 - as my husband disallowed debate with you (which is our definite impression of your intention through your posting) I'm just making a short post here..

You said you don't believe in progressive sanctification but there are three tenses to the word saved in scripture.

We are saved (past tense) we are being saved (present/current tense) we will be saved (future tense)

These three tenses show us three things that we call 1) Justification (when we initially come to Jesus and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit) 2) sancification (which we see as a process where we grow in knowledge and become more Christ-like throughout our lives) and 3) our glorification upon our death where we meet our Lord in heaven.

Sanctification is a process. We all have things we have to work on. We don't magically become perfect people when we are initially justified.

Our lives show progress throughout our entire lives, so we see it as a process.. where I am now, four years after my initial justification, is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was four years ago, and in 4 more years I'm sure I'll have grown in Christ even more.

This is why we see as a process. No, we aren't doing major sins, being saved is a life changing, life altering experience, but while the seed of God in us can't sin, our flesh still can so we have to learn how to walk in the Spirit - and as time goes on we get better at it and work on more and more of our own sins as we recognise what they are.

Okay, I said short post and went on and on, so I'll finish here and wish you well. God bless.

Here is a link so you can read more of what I was saying.

The 3 Tenses of the Gospel

Actually I gave up debating a few years ago. Now I only seek to preach truth and leave the rest to Christ. If what I say doesn’t line up with Scripture then ignore me.

 

[twin1954]

Christ, Christ, Christ is what I want others to see.