Iconoclasm should not be tolerable

[Not David]

This thread is not about people who are indifferent of icons or people who are not still comfortable with venerating them or use them in worship.

It is about people who are iconoclasts by principle and disapprove of other Christians doing it.

Do you agree or not?

 

[dzheremi]

And indeed iconoclasm isn't tolerated.

Is there a question here?

 

[Not David]

And indeed iconoclasm isn't tolerated.

Is there a question here?

What do you mean? A lot of Evangelicals are against icons and religious images. One of my relatives broke an image of Christ after converting from Catholicism to Evangelical.

 

[dzheremi]

I mean what do you want to talk about in this thread: Why iconoclasts are iconoclasts? How to fight against their ideas and practices? Something else? There's a lot to talk about concerning iconoclasm (and probably a lot of modern iconoclasts wouldn't necessarily identify themselves as such), but I don't see a question in the OP.

 

[Not David]

I mean what do you want to talk about in this thread: Why iconoclasts are iconoclasts? How to fight against their ideas and practices? Something else? There's a lot to talk about concerning iconoclasm (and probably a lot of modern iconoclasts wouldn't necessarily identify themselves as such), but I don't see a question in the OP.

I want to know why some people are iconoclast.

 

[dzheremi]

You might want to read some of the architects of the modern resurgence of iconoclasm, such as Nicholas Ridley's Treatise on the Worship of Images, which is available via Google Books (starts on pg. 53 of the collection you find at the link).

Mr. Ridley is apparently counted as a martyr (d. 1555) by the Anglican communion, just by the way.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some go the opposite extreme, they view churches that don't have icons as inherently problematic.

I appreciate the Lutheran position on this the best. We would never insist a church must have images, that Christians must venerate images, and yet we certainly would not break images of Christ or the saints, respecting what they represent.

 

[Not David]

Some go the opposite extreme, they view churches that don't have icons as inherently problematic.

I appreciate the Lutheran position on this the best. We would never insist a church must have images, that Christians must venerate images, and yet we certainly would not break images of Christ or the saints, respecting what they represent.

I thought Lutherans didn't have icons because it got influenced by Puritanism and Calvinism especially here in the US.

 

[FireDragon76]

I thought Lutherans didn't have icons because it got influenced by Puritanism and Calvinism especially here in the US.

That influence is not uniform or universal.

This is a statue from a Lutheran church (St. Mark's ELCA) in Baltimore, Maryland:

Like Mark often points out to me, Lutherans are more pragmatic and utilitarian. If somebody donates a statue or work of art, we are apt to use it, as was the case last year when our cantor found an old lithograph of Luther for us to hang in the back of the narthex (very appropriate since our church is named "Reformation"). But we also aren't apt to spend alot of money on religious art, either.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Iconoclasm is sad.

 

[anna ~ grace]

That's a beautiful image.

 

[Not David]

Iconclasm is sad.

I know, it was a terrible Islamic influence in the Middle Ages that sadly continues in some forms of Christianity.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's a beautiful image.

This Christmas we had a nativity set out in front of the altar. So we do have religious art. We just don't elevate it the way Orthodox do, to something that a church is required to have to be a proper church.

 

[Jonaitis]

This thread is not about people who are indifferent of icons or people who are not still comfortable with venerating them or use them in worship.

It is about people who are iconoclasts by principle and disapprove of other Christians doing it.

Do you agree or not?

I disagree, the use of any image, depiction, or representation in worship for any reason is in violation of the second commandment.

A friend of mine a while back recommended me to read John of Damascus' defense of it. Poor defense.

 

[Radagast]

What do you mean? A lot of Evangelicals are against icons and religious images.

Indeed.

You're not seriously wanting to force them to venerate statues, are you?

 

[Radagast]

I know, it was a terrible Islamic influence in the Middle Ages that sadly continues in some forms of Christianity.

Iconoclasm began in Constantinople in the early 8th century. I don't think it was the result of Islamic influence.

 

[Radagast]

I want to know why some people are iconoclast.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[Radagast]

Mr. Ridley is apparently counted as a martyr (d. 1555) by the Anglican communion, just by the way.

Burned at the stake, in fact. And "Mr" is probably not the appropriate title for a bishop.

 

[Concord1968]

I thought Lutherans didn't have icons because it got influenced by Puritanism and Calvinism especially here in the US.

Some Lutherans use crucifixes, there's no prohibition against it in the LCMS (that I'm aware of, anyway).

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I'm all in favor of getting rid of icons, which I regard as idols. I once was keenly aware of a demon in a chapel of a denomination which I will not disclose, and it retreated from me into an icon. I don't know how these things work, but apparently it felt safe there. I would rather have the statues of the saints all dashed to pieces than provide a refuge like that (they don't even look like the saints. They're just images of other people who modeled for sculptors in a different era).