The Holy Bible Teaches Globe Earth.

[FEZZILLA]

Job 26:7 is about the earth which is not held up by any pillars.

 

[Freodin]

The word pillars is not to be taken literally. The word pillars in that verse describes saints.

I would be wondering if you are not simply trolling here... but I don't expect much from creationists.

You might remember that you brought up this verse in response to my statement that the Bible doesn't "explain" (or "teach", if you want to keep at that term) anything about the form of the earth.

So, if this verse does "teach" anything about the physical shape of the earth... it is that it rests on pillars.
Or, if this verse is "not literal", it doesn't teach anything about the shape of the earth and is meaningless in this context.

Oh, the latin translation uses the word "orb".
Well, that doesn't tell us much.
First of all: the latin term "orbis" can very well refer to a circle. It can also be used to refer to "the world" in general, without any reference to its shape. You mustn't confuse it with the english derivate "orb".
But even if the author deliberately used it to mean "sphere" - which we don't know - it doesn't tell us more than that the translator of the Vulgata thought the earth was a sphere. Which isn't surprising considering the time when the translations was done.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is no "advanced science" in the Bible. Trying to prove the divine inspiration of scripture in that way is nonsense, a discredit to the Bible and to the Christian faith.

It's the same retrospective confirmation bias that is appled to prophecies - interpret scriptures in the light of subsequent events and claim a match. That way everyone can find prophecies that have come true even if they have conflicting belief systems. Some prophecies have 'come true' several times in different ways according to different believers.

If the bible contained 'advanced science', people would have been using that advanced science over a thousand years ago. If, instead of counselling against graven images, it had explained the germ theory of disease, or just provided simple measures to prevent infection, it could have saved millions of lives.

 

[d taylor]

How does the globe earth have a bottomless pit on it.

Only a flat stationary earth can have a bottomless pit.

 

[FEZZILLA]

I would be wondering if you are not simply trolling here... but I don't expect much from creationists.

You might remember that you brought up this verse in response to my statement that the Bible doesn't "explain" (or "teach", if you want to keep at that term) anything about the form of the earth.

I'm a Christian on a Christian forum who opened this topic. You are the one trolling here.

So, if this verse does "teach" anything about the physical shape of the earth... it is that it rests on pillars.
Or, if this verse is "not literal", it doesn't teach anything about the shape of the earth and is meaningless in this context.

Oh, the latin translation uses the word "orb".
Well, that doesn't tell us much.
First of all: the latin term "orbis" can very well refer to a circle. It can also be used to refer to "the world" in general, without any reference to its shape. You mustn't confuse it with the english derivate "orb".
But even if the author deliberately used it to mean "sphere" - which we don't know - it doesn't tell us more than that the translator of the Vulgata thought the earth was a sphere. Which isn't surprising considering the time when the translations was done.

Your silly argument was refuted in post #280

 

[Theo Barnsley]

The flat earth movement seems to be one of those temporary movements which will decline and go back to the underground where it came from. In the meantime, this anarchist movement seeks to win people over to their worldview through the sensation of conspiracy theory which is based entirely on disinformation. The Holy Bible does not teach flat earth nor is there a flat earth tradition in Christianity. I would like to officially knock out the flat earth allegation leveled against the Bible by atheists once and for all. These lies being spread that the Bible is a flat earth book are not true.

The ground rules for this discussion is that the topic stays on the Biblical view and not arguments from the perspective of modern science. So if we want to understand the Biblical teaching we must stay on track.

I became a Christian back when I was 14 years old. When I first opened up my new NIV 1984 Edition Bible, I flipped open to the 40th Chapter of the Book of Isaiah and it didn't take long for my young and sharp eyes to notice verse 22. When I first read Isaiah 40:22 I knew right away what it was saying to me. I knew right then and there that God revealed the globular shape of the earth to Isaiah, and what I was taught in school about Columbus discovering the round shape of the earth was not true. I also knew I was reading a very ancient work so I knew better than to nit-pick on the circular description of the earth, as the earth is circular as seen in space, no matter what side of the earth you see.

There are actually over a dozen globe earth verses in the Bible.

Isaiah 40:22 states: [It is] he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in;

Where in this passage does it say anything about the earth being 'globular' (a more accurate description would be spherical)? The Jews thouht that the earth was shaped round like a dinnerplate (so a flat circle), with a dome above it (kind of like a snowglobe), which almost perfectly matches the description in Isaiah. They had no concept that the earrth was spherical. You claim that there are over a dozen globe earth verses in the bible, so what are they? I can probably quote you as many flat earth verses in the bible.

The greeks knew that the earth was spherical thousands of years ago, so apparently the greek gods were smarter than the jewish god.

 

[USincognito]

Neither am I.

The problem is that Flat Earthers basically have to claim that literally 10s of thousands of people are involved in a massive cover up to not only conceal the reality of Flerf, but to keep the facade of an actual earth in play by faking rocket launches and satellite orbits, flight paths that are impossible on Flerf, several fake bases in Antarctica, naval and coast guard personnel who keep people away from the supposed ice wall, NASA, NOAA, USGS, etc. etc.

So apart from that giant conspiracy, I guess one could claim not to be a conspiracist. One, however, would not be taken seriously.

 

[Speedwell]

Isaiah 40:22 states: [It is] he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in;

Where in this passage does it say anything about the earth being 'globular' (a more accurate description would be spherical)? The Jews thouht that the earth was shaped round like a dinnerplate (so a flat circle), with a dome above it (kind of like a snowglobe), which almost perfectly matches the description in Isaiah. They had no concept that the earrth was spherical. You claim that there are over a dozen globe earth verses in the bible, so what are they? I can probably quote you as many flat earth verses in the bible.

The greeks knew that the earth was spherical thousands of years ago, so apparently the greek gods were smarter than the jewish god.

The argument is apparently that not only are their passages in the Bible which are consistent with a spherical Earth, but that the Bible actually teaches it. We have yet to see any passages which teach a flat Earth.

 

[d taylor]

There are plenty of Bible areas that when they describe the earth or God's result of His work that describe a completely different description than what science is saying. Genesis 1, Psalms 19:1, Joshua 10, Isaiah 38:8, Stars falling to earth,

 

[Theo Barnsley]

The argument is apparently that not only are their passages in the Bible which are consistent with a spherical Earth, but that the Bible actually teaches it. We have yet to see any passages which teach a flat Earth.

What passages in the bible 'teach' a spherical earth? I bet you cant name any.

There are passages in the bible that would infer a flat earth, as to whether it actually 'teaches' it or not, I think there you are playing with semantics.

 

[Freodin]

There are passages in the bible that would infer a flat earth, as to whether it actually 'teaches' it or not, I think there you are playing with semantics.

I'd say that there is a rather big difference. And, yes, part of it is linguistics.

Our language - all of our languages - are not mathematically precise. They are filled with similes, linguistic backlogs, anachronisms, referals to old and sometimes outdated concepts.
For example, you could critizise that every single mention of atoms "teaches" a false physical model. But it doesn't. It just uses a common term, based on tradition, that is technically an incorrect description.

In that regard, the Bible uses phrases and comparisons that can imply a technically incorrect worldview. We can easily explain them as figures of speech, metophors and comparisons based on a limited understanding of the technical facts.
Sometimes these verses can even be ambiguous, and might be used to imply a different, more correct understanding. Based on hindsight.

So it can be quite difficult to assert for certain whether a certain verse or phrase is meant as a factual statement or a figure of speech.

I'd rather critizise the faulty logic of those people who want to claim that the Bible must teach a Globe Earth, because that is correct, and the Bible can never be wrong.

 

[USincognito]

It's flat at great distances, because it's flat. When people are catching a mountain 1,200 miles away at an altitude of 31k feet, then there is over 120 miles of missing curve. Doesn't work on a globe.

Do you have an example of this?

 

[USincognito]

It depends what you mean by a conscious deception. We are all taught the earth is a globe from birth, by others who were taught the earth was a globe from birth. In most cases I would think of it more as a truth hidden by generational indoctrination.

I'm sorry but this tap dancing doesn't work. There are many tens of thousands of people who who work for government agencies that deal with data, observations and analysis that contradict a flat stationary earth. They ALL have to at some point actively decide to ignore or cover up those data, observations and analysis. Just in the U.S. alone that would include NASA, NOAA, NRO, USAF, NSF, USGS, etc. We can also throw in Elon Musk and all Space X employees. How about AT&T (DirecTV), Iridium satellite phones and other private satellite owners and operators? What about all those amateur astromoners who observe the ISS looking exactly like the ISS and not a plane or balloon?

 

[Strathos]

I'm sorry but this tap dancing doesn't work. There are many tens of thousands of people who who work for government agencies that deal with data, observations and analysis that contradict a flat stationary earth. They ALL have to at some point actively decide to ignore or cover up those data, observations and analysis. Just in the U.S. alone that would include NASA, NOAA, NRO, USAF, NSF, USGS, etc. We can also throw in Elon Musk and all Space X employees. How about AT&T (DirecTV), Iridium satellite phones and other private satellite owners and operators? What about all those amateur astromoners who observe the ISS looking exactly like the ISS and not a plane or balloon?

What about everyone who has been on a flight over Antarctica, everyone who has ever seen a mountain appear top-first as they approached it in a ship or seen a ship disappear over the horizon (and used something to zoom in to confirm that, no, it doesn't reappear), everyone who has ever seen a lunar eclipse, everyone who has ever been on a high-altitude flight, everyone who has ever circumnavigated Antarctica, everyone who has ever even been to the edge of Antarctica and not found a massive ice wall guarded 24/7 by tons of battleships, helicopters, and missile emplacements, everyone who has ever recreated Erastosthenes' experiment on their own, everyone who has ever seen a sunrise or sunset, etc. ad infinitum.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

I'd say that there is a rather big difference. And, yes, part of it is linguistics.

Our language - all of our languages - are not mathematically precise. They are filled with similes, linguistic backlogs, anachronisms, referals to old and sometimes outdated concepts.
For example, you could critizise that every single mention of atoms "teaches" a false physical model. But it doesn't. It just uses a common term, based on tradition, that is technically an incorrect description.

In that regard, the Bible uses phrases and comparisons that can imply a technically incorrect worldview. We can easily explain them as figures of speech, metophors and comparisons based on a limited understanding of the technical facts.
Sometimes these verses can even be ambiguous, and might be used to imply a different, more correct understanding. Based on hindsight.

So it can be quite difficult to assert for certain whether a certain verse or phrase is meant as a factual statement or a figure of speech.

I'd rather critizise the faulty logic of those people who want to claim that the Bible must teach a Globe Earth, because that is correct, and the Bible can never be wrong.

The verses are ambiguous because they are written by an ancient people who had no true concept or knowledge of how the natural world or the universe worked, & their 'god' was too thick to know how anything worked either! Their 'god' was so thick he had to get Adam to name all the creatures of the earth, before he realised that none of them were really suitable as a mate for Adam!

 

[FEZZILLA]

Isaiah 40:22 states: [It is] he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in;

Where in this passage does it say anything about the earth being 'globular' (a more accurate description would be spherical)? The Jews thouht that the earth was shaped round like a dinnerplate (so a flat circle), with a dome above it (kind of like a snowglobe), which almost perfectly matches the description in Isaiah. They had no concept that the earrth was spherical. You claim that there are over a dozen globe earth verses in the bible, so what are they? I can probably quote you as many flat earth verses in the bible.

The greeks knew that the earth was spherical thousands of years ago, so apparently the greek gods were smarter than the jewish god.

Isaiah 40:22 uses the word chuwg which is applicable to globe/sphere.


Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
_________________________________________________________________
Chuwg: How It Was Understood By The Ancient Church


Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

† Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...L4Ust2BEdIuEcQSJjLVo7vbPVmH4QpqCteqe5yUQzufNA
__________________________________________________________________
Did The Greeks Influence The Christians?

Atheists make the claim that the Christians knew the earth was round only because the Greeks told them. This lie is well refuted by the Old Testament which the early Christians read and knew very well.

There are several verses in the Bible dating as far back as 2000 B.C., 1000 B.C., 900., B.C. and 700 B.C. which state the earth is round. All these round earth verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought of the earth's sphericity by Pythagoras in 500 B.C.

Here is a general overlay of round earth verses in the Bible. This does not cover all round earth verses but the dates in history in which these verses were written from.

Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.),

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (2000 B.C.)

"He has circled the waters with boundaries, until the day and night come to an end" (MEV).

“But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (St.Augustine, "The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1." Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41, p.33).

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” ( Jewish Historian Josephus, Antiquity 1:30).
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Job 37:12 (2000 B.C.),

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible ---- H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets).

Psalm 89:11 (1000 B.C.),

""The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Matthew's Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 (900 B.C.),

"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22 (700 B.C.),

" It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

“It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”

Matthew Henry's Commentary

"Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."

Jeremiah 51:15 (600 B.C.).

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens"

Anyone who has read the church fathers will see how Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and other early church fathers challenged the Greeks on their worldview. The early church was at odds with traditional Greek paganism. Though it was rarely that the shape of the earth was debated, but the early church did debate pagans who ridiculed the Bible for teaching sphere earth. St.Ambrose mentions these skeptics who ridiculed Scripture for teaching that the earth was a sphere. In fact, this ridicule is being rehashed today by flat earthers.

“And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.52).

 

[Theo Barnsley]

Isaiah 40:22 uses the word chuwg which is applicable to globe/sphere.


Hebrew Lexicons:

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
View attachment 250601

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
_________________________________________________________________
Chuwg: How It Was Understood By The Ancient Church


Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

† Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...L4Ust2BEdIuEcQSJjLVo7vbPVmH4QpqCteqe5yUQzufNA
__________________________________________________________________
Did The Greeks Influence The Christians?

Atheists make the claim that the Christians knew the earth was round only because the Greeks told them. This lie is well refuted by the Old Testament which the early Christians read and knew very well.

There are several verses in the Bible dating as far back as 2000 B.C., 1000 B.C., 900., B.C. and 700 B.C. which state the earth is round. All these round earth verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought of the earth's sphericity by Pythagoras in 500 B.C.

Here is a general overlay of round earth verses in the Bible. This does not cover all round earth verses but the dates in history in which these verses were written from.

Job 26:10 (2000 B.C.),

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (2000 B.C.)

"He has circled the waters with boundaries, until the day and night come to an end" (MEV).

“But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (St.Augustine, "The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1." Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41, p.33).

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” ( Jewish Historian Josephus, Antiquity 1:30).
https://wikidiff.com/compass/encompass

Job 37:12 (2000 B.C.),

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible ---- H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets).

Psalm 89:11 (1000 B.C.),

""The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Matthew's Bible).

Proverbs 8:31 (900 B.C.),

"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (Bishop's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22 (700 B.C.),

" It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

“It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”

Matthew Henry's Commentary

"Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."

Jeremiah 51:15 (600 B.C.).

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens"

Anyone who has read the church fathers will see how Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and other early church fathers challenged the Greeks on their worldview. The early church was at odds with traditional Greek paganism. Though it was rarely that the shape of the earth was debated, but the early church did debate pagans who ridiculed the Bible for teaching sphere earth. St.Ambrose mentions these skeptics who ridiculed Scripture for teaching that the earth was a sphere. In fact, this ridicule is being rehashed today by flat earthers.

“And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.52).

View attachment 250603

Nothing you have quoted supports a spherical earth, but a round one shaped like a dinnerplate with a dome over the top, to seperate the earth from the so called water above it.

Nobody would conclude that the earth was spherical from reading the bible, which is why nobody did. The greeks figured it out, & they didnt use the bible as their inspiration.

You are doing what all Christians do, taking a known fact which we have learnt from science & reason, & then trying to make bible verses fit the fact to claim that the bible knew this as fact all along. Yet the fact only ever becomes apparent in the bible after somebody else has figured it out using non-biblical sources & christians then scour the bible to see if there is anything in it they can re-interpret to fit, often using very dubious logic & very creative interpretation in order to do so.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Nothing you have quoted supports a spherical earth, but a round one shaped like a dinnerplate with a dome over the top, to seperate the earth from the so called water above it.

Nobody would conclude that the earth was spherical from reading the bible, which is why nobody did. The greeks figured it out, & they didnt use the bible as their inspiration.

You are doing what all Christians do, taking a known fact which we have learnt from science & reason, & then trying to make bible verses fit the fact to claim that the bible knew this as fact all along. Yet the fact only ever becomes apparent in the bible after somebody else has figured it out using non-biblical sources & christians then scour the bible to see if there is anything in it they can re-interpret to fit, often using very dubious logic in order to do so.

You seriously did read the post and then continue on with your refuted opinion like all atheist do. Your false view of history is refuted and you have no facts to counter it with.

There isn't even a flat earth tradition in Christianity. You want to interpret the Bible from strictly a 20th & 21st century atheist point of view. Well who cares about modern atheist interpretations of Scripture. We Christians have readings from Scripture that go back to the church fathers of the 1st century of Christ with no gaps in the ecclesiastical lineage and they all read globe earth. The Scriptures themselves are much older than 500 B.C when the first Greek thought of a spherical earth is recorded. So its totally shameful how atheists have lied about this issue and says very little about atheism.

Here is a list of globe earth verses in the Bible your atheist college professor didn't want you to know about.

1 Samuel 2:8,

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

Job 26:10,

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; -- KJV).

Job 37:12,

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Psalm 18:15,

"The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 19:4,

"in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum" (Latin Vulgate).

"Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Psalm 24:1,

"A Psalme of Dauid. The earth is the Lordes, & all that therin is: the compase of the world, & al that dwell therein" (H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 93:1,

"The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 96:10,

"Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he, which hath made the rounde worlde so faste, that it can not be moued, and howe that he shall iudge the people righteously" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Proverbs 8:27,

“When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth” ((Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg -- KJV).

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Ecclesiastes 1:6

“The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits” (KJV).

Isaiah 18:3,

"Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 34:1,

"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22,

"That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Jeremiah 10:12,

"But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
_________________________________________________________________
4 Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

1. The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

2. Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

3. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

4. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
____________________________________________________________
Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So where do we see a flat earth? We don't! And every one of these verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought of the earth's sphericity by Pythagoras in 500 B.C.! Even funnier is how even if we were too apply the dubious atheist dating of the Bible we still get all these verses before Pythagoras in 500 B.C. LOL!!

 

[SeventyOne]

You seriously did read the post and then continue on with your refuted opinion like all atheist do. Your false view of history is refuted and you have no facts to counter it with.

There isn't even a flat earth tradition in Christianity. You want to interpret the Bible from strictly a 20th & 21st century atheist point of view. Well who cares about modern atheist interpretations of Scripture. We Christians have readings from Scripture that go back to the church fathers of the 1st century of Christ with no gaps in the ecclesiastical lineage and they all read globe earth. The Scriptures themselves are much older than 500 B.C when the first Greek thought of a spherical earth is recorded. So its totally shameful how atheists have lied about this issue and says very little about atheism.

Here is a list of globe earth verses in the Bible your atheist college professor didn't want you to know about.

1 Samuel 2:8,

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

Job 26:10,

"He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; -- KJV).

Job 37:12,

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Psalm 18:15,

"The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 19:4,

"in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum" (Latin Vulgate).

"Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Psalm 24:1,

"A Psalme of Dauid. The earth is the Lordes, & all that therin is: the compase of the world, & al that dwell therein" (H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 93:1,

"The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Psalm 96:10,

"Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he, which hath made the rounde worlde so faste, that it can not be moued, and howe that he shall iudge the people righteously" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Proverbs 8:27,

“When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth” ((Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg -- KJV).

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Ecclesiastes 1:6

“The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits” (KJV).

Isaiah 18:3,

"Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 34:1,

"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22,

"That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
View attachment 250607

Jeremiah 10:12,

"But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
_________________________________________________________________
4 Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

1. The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

2. Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250606

3. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

4. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
____________________________________________________________
Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So where do we see a flat earth? We don't! And every one of these verses antedate the first recorded Greek thought of the earth's sphericity by Pythagoras in 500 B.C.! Even funnier is how even if we were too apply the dubious atheist dating of the Bible we still get all these verses before Pythagoras in 500 B.C. LOL!!

It's amazing. You are so close. You know the bulk of the verses that describe an earth the shape of a circle, immovable, sitting on pillars, with nothing above it but a dome, but you ignore all that in favor interpretation of others who were just as wrong as you are.

In this case, the atheists have it right. The Bible does teach a flat earth, and so it is. As amusing as it reading the back and forth of how both sides are agreeing the earth is a globe, and yet insist how each other are wrong in determining that it's a globe, it's also pathetic because both of you are completely wrong. You keep insisting that flat earth is some atheistic concept, yet you are in full agreement with them that it's a globe. It's not the flat earth that is on their side of the argument, it's you. You are doing the very thing that you accuse the flat-earthers of doing.

They have their problems too. They say Eratosthenes figured out it's a globe over 2,000 years ago even though the test was inconclusive. They say his experiment hinges on the rays of the sun being parallel and far away, but then later turn around and say parallel rays are nonsense, because they need non-parallel rays to create the eclipse shadows. They change things around to suit whatever argument has come up. You, on the other hand, do not rely on scriptures, but rather rely on what others have said about the scriptures, building your house on the sand, so to speak.

 

[Speedwell]

What passages in the bible 'teach' a spherical earth? I bet you cant name any.

There are passages in the bible that would infer a flat earth, as to whether it actually 'teaches' it or not, I think there you are playing with semantics.

You'd win that bet. I don't think there are any passages in the Bible which teach anything whatever about the shape of the Earth.

And, no, I am not "playing with semantics." The very fact that we are arguing about whether there are any passages which imply a flat or a spherical Earth is proof of it.

If the Bible actually taught it there would be no argument. Who argues with "Thou shall not steal" or "love they neighbor?"

If you have to figure it out (and people come to a variety of opinions) then it is not a "teaching."