predestined

[Cis.jd]

I didn't quote that statement in the sense of "works". We walk by faith and not by works. There are instances in scripture where we are told to be as God is, yet the same word of God shows us we can't accomplish those things in ourselves. Therefore, we need a savior who fulfilled those things and His righteousness is imputed on us.
The whole point of accepting God as you state is so we are one with Him-we don't become Him, we are Justified by Him!

I see, how do you be like God? Wouldn't it be possible to just believe in him and go about my life, no need for church, no need for preaching, no need for bible reading, etc?

 

[devin553344]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

That concept is relative. One might not alter his fate towards good if he never has the Holy Spirit with him. But he may choose for himself, and the temper will try them.

To change one's fate to good works one must be filled with the Holy Spirit, that God makes you capable of choosing the good, only because God is in you and you in God.

And God may compel people to change the outcome of things upon the earth. In that respect God has changed fates of many persons.

In that also the devil changes the fate of many persons. We should guard ourselves with the Holy Spirit to avoid the temper's snares.

But pondering an existence without the tempter or God, yes you are free to choose for yourself. That is how God has created the machine that is mankind's body. Also one might conclude from scripture that without God man would not live.

 

[zoidar]

I don't think God is working from a list of names of those who will be saved and those who will not. I think God knows the saved from the lost and that's enough for me. I just think characterizing predestination as pagan fate is a mistake, the two concepts have nothing to do with one another. I just think it's important to realize, God's plans and purposes 'in Christ' have not changed since before the foundation of the world, all who will be saved will be the righteousness of God in Christ, there was never a plan b.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Actually my view is the original Christian view if you go to the first Church fathers. The Calvinistic view is the same as the Gnostic's.

Does any Christian believe in a plan B?

 

[redleghunter]

Do we have to do this, or can we just live by faith alone?

These are not mutually exclusive. On the one hand saved by Grace through faith is standing with God. Preaching the Gospel and the Great Commission is what Jesus told us to do.

 

[redleghunter]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Fates is really a pagan understanding of determinism. It is not Sovereign predestination or foreknowledge.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Well before you dive into the study soteriology you may want to first compare the views that are claiming doctrine, most notably the Calvinist -Arminian debate within Protestantism. This deliberation has been going on for centuries having the very question you have asked as the central theme,
"free will". There is a difference between how each group would answer this question. I believe you will need to search out the scriptures for your answer then approach each system for the truth.
Blessings

 

[Halbhh]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

And, evidently by Christ's words, our direction can be changed also -- Luke chapter 15.

--------------
'whoever does not believe' -- this is for those having fully understood the accurate gospel (not the common partial understanding), and not simply disbelieved because of a mistaken version; also, not merely doubt in the mind, but to fully disbelieve (when hearing the real gospel that Christ came and died for their sins, to save them). If a person only doubts in the intellect but still believes in the heart or soul (on a subtle level, even on a level the person doesn't realize yet), this doubt isn't real disbelief in the Truth, but only a doubting time, like Thomas before Christ showed Him his hands and side. Some who may say they don't believe may in reality at times pray, showing the heart or soul knows better.

 

[Cis.jd]

These are not mutually exclusive. On the one hand saved by Grace through faith is standing with God. Preaching the Gospel and the Great Commission is what Jesus told us to do.

So preaching the gospel is on the "other hand"? Ok, i see what you mean -- there are things we have to do other than just have faith. We are told to do this, so if we don't do it our faith is nullified? Just wanted clarification.

 

[redleghunter]

So preaching the gospel is on the "other hand"? Ok, i see what you mean -- there are things we have to do other than just have faith.

They are not mutually exclusive. It's not an either or, but a status and a doing.

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually my view is the original Christian view if you go to the first Church fathers. The Calvinistic view is the same as the Gnostic's.

Does any Christian believe in a plan B?

Calvinists the same as Gnostics, that's nonsense.

 

[redleghunter]

oh.. I don't understand. I can't just have faith and sit/be quite/go about my business, i have to do stuff?

Well it's part of the workmanship of God related to us as new creations:

Ephesians 2: NASB
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[redleghunter]

Why do things to make us perfect as God when we live by faith alone? That is undermining to what Christ did on the cross because what is the point of being perfect as God when all we need to do is accept him?

I believe your questions can be answered by reading and studying Romans chapters 1 through 5.


Your 'faith alone' meme is a 'that dog don't hunt.'

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually my view is the original Christian view if you go to the first Church fathers. The Calvinistic view is the same as the Gnostic's.

Does any Christian believe in a plan B?

Yea, it's called a works righteousness.

 

[zoidar]

Calvinists the same as Gnostics, that's nonsense.

Nope! The Gnostics had the same deterministic view as Calvinists. If you weren't chosen, then you weren't.

 

[Cis.jd]

They are not mutually exclusive. It's not an either or, but a status and a doing.

So what happens if we don't? I mean we already have faith and believe in who Jesus is as defined in the creeds yet don't use any form of energy or do this "workmanship", what does that mean in regards to our faith? Sorry for the questions. I understand it may seem like it's going off topic but there is a co-relation to what the thread is about.

 

[redleghunter]

Yup. Such is the Calvinistic mindset.

Nope 'fates' is neither Biblical or Calvinist. "Fates" is pagan determinism.

Free will is from Deistic Enlightenment philosophy.

This is Biblical predestination and election.

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[redleghunter]

Nope! The Gnostics had the same deterministic view as Calvinists. If you weren't chosen, then you weren't.

Complete rubbish. Reformed doctrine does not teach determinism. It teaches the Sovereignty of God, a God Who has a Will and Purpose.

The Libertarian free will peddled about in some Christian corners is influenced by Deistic Enlightenment and in the postmodern era influenced by human concepts of 'fairness' and 'social justice.'

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I gather Paul was a Calvinist? Because what you see above is apostolic teaching and shared by St Augustine and the Reformers.

 

[redleghunter]

If any of you doubt predestination then read what Paul wrote to the Romans.

Or Ephesians 1, or John 6 or John 10 the list goes on.

 

[redleghunter]

Also, consider before responding, that you will be making a choice to reply to none, some, or all of the questions. My presenting of choices insinuates a choice must be made. And I will need to know how to respond to your response with love and kindness. But as I’ve left my mark on this thread, I am allowing for responses therefore I know I’ll be seeing this thread again.

I responded exercising a choice to do so. Predestination and foreknowledge does not mean we don't have choices. It means we act according to the nature of our choices. We are either dead in our sins and sons of disobedience or slaves to righteousness and Christ. Our choices are in accordance with what or Whom we are in bondage to, or slaves to.

Romans 6: NASB
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Now ask the question. Do our choices thwart the will and purpose of God? Because it seems everyone wants to deny God His own Will and Purpose by calling any move by God to predestine does not make us 'free.' As we see from Romans 6 we truly are not 'free' in the Deistic Enlightenment or modern Libertarian mentality. We are under bondage to either sin leading to death, or Christ and righteousness. So that limitation right there squashes the notion of 'free will.' We are free to make choices but those choices are in bondage.

This teaching is apostolic, Biblical, historical and Reformed.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

oh.. I don't understand. I can't just have faith and sit/be quite/go about my business, i have to do stuff?

But would it make a difference if God chosen people who would be saved.