Does God allow abortions?

[Justified112]

How did you conclude it was my position? See:
Today at 3:46 AM#266

How about just answering question??? If the government told you to murder your family, would you do it? Would you obey the government?

 

[SkyWriting]

No, they don't say it is the top priority. You are assigning that value to them. Jesus lived in submission to the governing powers because He had a supreme agenda to be put to death by them. You cannot apply that to us.

I didn't. These writers did though.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

 

[SkyWriting]

How about just answering question??? If the government told you to murder your family, would you do it? Would you obey the government?

Leaving that country would be a better option. Scripture suggests shaking the dust from your feet and moving on.

 

[Justified112]

Leaving that country would be a better option. Scripture suggests shaking the dust from your feet and moving on.

So, you would NOT obey the government if it told you to murder your family, right?

 

[Justified112]

I didn't. These writers did though.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

Not a single one of those passages state that earthly governments overrule God's governance and authority, as you have tried to assert.

 

[Justified112]

I didn't. These writers did though.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

No, they did not. And peppering us with a bunch of verses you ripped out of context and strung together like lights on a Christmas tree only demonstrates the inherent weakness of your argument.

 

[alv_c]

You be the judge:

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

and now:
New York State Assembly Passes Third Trimester Abortion Bill

The Torah forbids abortions. It is written,

And if two men should do combat, and should strike a woman having one in the womb, and should come forth her child not harmed, with a fine he shall be penalized, in so far as the husband of the woman should put on him, and he shall give by means of what is fit. And if it should be harmed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:22-25

Abortion is Murder | Wisdom of God

 

[SkyWriting]

The Torah forbids abortions. It is written,

And if two men should do combat, and should strike a woman having one in the womb, and should come forth her child not harmed, with a fine he shall be penalized, in so far as the husband of the woman should put on him, and he shall give by means of what is fit. And if it should be harmed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exodus 21:22-25

Abortion is Murder | Wisdom of God

You still following the Torah?

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

 

[SkyWriting]

No, they did not. And peppering us with a bunch of verses you ripped out of context and strung together like lights on a Christmas tree only demonstrates the inherent weakness of your argument.

I can limit it to one at your request:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Full Context Here

OK Two:

1 Peter 2:13-14
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.


Context Here

The context above also says this:

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. 19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure?



The New Testament includes 655 quotes from the Old Testament...each one used and applied totally out of context, with not one Christmas Tree complaint.

 

[alv_c]

You still following the Torah?

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Torah and covenant are two different things. While the old covenant was indeed replaced by the new covenant, the Torah that came through the old covenant remains, because it is the Law that defines all that is sin, which is why the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "until heaven and earth vanishes, not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Torah". Once the entire Torah is fulfilled by the Messiah, which includes the autumn appointed times, and the millennial Shabbath, then the Torah will vanish, but not before, which makes anyone who thinks that it is abolished a man of lawlessness, meaning, having no law, which is the Torah.

 

[SkyWriting]

No, they don't say it is the top priority. You are assigning that value to them. Jesus lived in submission to the governing powers because He had a supreme agenda to be put to death by them. You cannot apply that to us.

I wouldn't do that to you.
Does God work His will through governments?

 

[SkyWriting]

Torah and covenant are two different things. While the old covenant was indeed replaced by the new covenant, the Torah that came through the old covenant remains, because it is the Law that defines all that is sin, which is why the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "until heaven and earth vanishes, not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Torah". Once the entire Torah is fulfilled by the Messiah, which includes the autumn appointed times, and the millennial Shabbath, then the Torah will vanish, but not before, which makes anyone who thinks that it is abolished a man of lawlessness, meaning, having no law, which is the Torah.

I'm among those who believe it was fully filled in Jesus. So I hold to my point, but your view is interesting and I'll consider if Jesus is really the Messiah.

Looking into your explanation that the Torah defines all sin, I found nothing yet.
The Torah | My Jewish Learning

The word "Sin" not used:
The Written Law - Torah

The Torah | The Bible Project

 

[SkyWriting]

And peppering us with a bunch of verses you ripped out of context and strung together like lights on a Christmas tree only demonstrates the inherent weakness of your argument.

Most call that research, and putting them together is usually labeled "Supporting verses".

Here is one of two lists, and I have no control over the results.
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

 

[SkyWriting]

Not a single one of those passages state that earthly governments overrule God's governance and authority, as you have tried to assert.

My argument is that earthly governments ARE God's governance and authority.
It's so strange a claim that most don't even hear what I'm saying.

Here Jesus explains that government is His Fathers will:

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

and later here, even to His death:

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, Jesus did. But keep in mind that there was a greater purpose in doing that. Jesus was not doing it because local government overrules the governance of God. He allowed the governing power to put Him on the cross to fulfill the plan of redemption.

That, in no way, means that we are obey human government over God and the Scriptures. It appears to me that you are trying to make that case as an excuse for promoting abortion, something that is abhorrent and violates the Word of God.

I'm saying that Jesus instructs us that government action is the Word of God.

 

[alv_c]

I'm among those who believe it was fully filled in Jesus. So I hold to my point, but your view is interesting and I'll consider if Jesus is really the Messiah.

Looking into your explanation that the Torah defines all sin, I found nothing yet.
The Torah | My Jewish Learning

The word "Sin" not used:
The Written Law - Torah

The Torah | The Bible Project

Paul himself said, "though the Torah is knowledge of sin", through its commands.

 

[SkyWriting]

Paul himself said, "though the Torah is knowledge of sin", through its commands.

I'm suspicious of everything Paul wrote.

 

[SkyWriting]

Not a single one of those passages state that earthly governments overrule God's governance and authority, as you have tried to assert.

Jesus said it quite plain:

John 19
11Jesus answered, “You would have
no authority over Me
if it were not given to you from above.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities,
to be obedient,
to be ready for
every good work,

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

 

[Matt Evans]

My claim is that local government is God's will. So to do otherwise is wrong.
1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

"My claim is that local government IS God's will"

So first of all which 'local government' are we talking about ? For the purpose of this reply we will use whichever local government is in place where you live, for that to be the case that 'it is God's will' then one would have to assume that you live in some idyllic Christ led community, and that their laws are 100% in sync with God's ! What about Christians living in Islamic countries ? Is shariah law, which could very possibly be the law of their 'local government' be God's will for them to live under ?

 

[Matt Evans]

It is true these are the modern champions of the practice, but it goes back to a sacrifice-based religious system older than Christianity itself.

Yes like when the Babylonians sacrificed their children to molech