Does God allow abortions?

[kiwimac]

From the Didache:

2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods";

The Didache is not scripture.

 

[kiwimac]

There is no biblical oppostion to abortion and that is simply because a foetus was not considered human until birth.

 

[SkyWriting]

Obeying government takes precedence over scripture? Is this a troll? So Daniel should've bowed to Babylon's idols? Peter should've said, "We will not obey God but man"? The millions of Christians martyred by authorities we're wrong? The people who take the mark of the beast will be right?

Can the OP be so stupid? Grade A retardation right there.

On you last one, it reads that all will take the mark. It does not say that any will or should resist. It also does not read that the mark is required by law. Also, we can never pin down prophesy with nails, because it's more like Jello.

Your first question, Yes, government IS God's will on earth, according to Jesus during his arrest and trial.
#2. Check post 33 for background scripture.Yesterday at 12:18 PM#33
#3 Will read up
#4 Jesus claimed that Government process IS the will of the Father.
#5 I dunno which circumstances you refer to.
#6 I don't see that the Mark is required by law or that people will or should or can avoid it.

 

[SkyWriting]

No he doesn't. If he did, we wouldn't be able to screw things up as badly as we do.

With no screw ups, then you'd be in Heaven or Nirvanna.
This is not that place, and if it was, would you be qualified to enter anyway?
If everything was perfect, wouldn't you stand out some?

 

[SkyWriting]

Acts 5:27-29
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that you should not teach in this name? and, behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Yes, and for that reason, I will follow the God's will and the rules of my local government, and not following advice from posters in this forum who are world wide. Especially any High priest. In particular.

 

[Zoii]

From the Didache:

2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods";

I know - yet we get a plethora of verses saying the opposite which confuses things:
Psalm 137:9
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

1 Samuel 15:3
Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Exodus 12:29-30
At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt

Hosea 13:16
they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open

Joshua 6:20-21
Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword

2 Kings 19:35
And that night the angel of the Lord went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

Numbers 31:17-18
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

Jeremiah 19:9
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them

Leviticus 26:22
I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children

Isaiah 13:16
Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.


I could go one but you get the picture.

I have heard from many people who attempt to justify the slaughter of children upon Gods command but it has always been for me a very unsettling and disturbing justification. For example, Ive heard many times the justification of the ripping open of pregnant women, who were 'enemies of the people of Israel' because God favoured the Israelites. That makes me feel very unsettled

In my mind, it diminishes the Christian stance on abortion.

For me, I choose to take a Kantian ethical view - That is, killing anyone (whether alive or in utero) is only justified in the defence of self or others. Thus, in terms of a mother undergoing an abortion, is justified where she is protecting her own life. As a society our efforts should support the choice to have the child or adopt........ How many on this site have heaped scorn on single unwed mothers getting social support....... We want them to keep the child then rubbish them for needing help!!!

I also have to take a deep breath and acknowledge that its OK for me to say that, because I am safe in my armchair in a secure country. How would I feel, pregnant and unwed if I lived in Pakistan. I would be executed by the state or my own family.... along with the fetus and the man who got me pregnant.

I choose not to stand in judgement of people faced with intolerable circumstances and refuse to throw the first stone.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You be the judge:

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

and now:
New York State Assembly Passes Third Trimester Abortion Bill

Anything that happens, God has to allow. That doesn't mean that it is what God wills. It just means that God allows it. Consider Job. Did God want that to happen to Job or did God allow it to happen for the purpose of taking Job and his friends to a deeper and living understanding of God?

If the wickedness (including the rulers and authorities of Noah's time) was so bad that God decided to flood the earth and kill them all, doesn't that necessarily say God allows things to happen, but that to doesn't mean He approves of them. We are warned that there is coming a day when He will judge. We are told in the meantime that He is being longsuffering.

When Adam and Eve were disobedient, God had to allow that. In fact, God had to know that putting satan on earth would cause it. Yet, all three were cursed when they chose to be disobedient.

When Moses was disobedient and when Israel was disobedient, God had to allow it; but it didn't mean they weren't judged for their disobedience.

When Joshua was sold into slavery and forgotten as dead and when he was falsely accused and imprisoned; Joshua later told his brothers: "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Sometimes God allows stuff for a reason; but it doesn't absolve the guilty who promote their evil cause from the their guilt.

 

[aiki]

Yes, and for that reason, I will follow the God's will and the rules of my local government, and not following advice from posters in this forum who are world wide. Especially any High priest. In particular.

If God's will diverges from that of the "local government," it is obvious that God's will is the one His children are to follow. Would you have followed the Nazi government in Germany, murdering Jews, gypsies, and the mental deficient in concentration camps? Or would you have obeyed God rather than men?

 

[His student]

Yes, and for that reason, I will follow the God's will and the rules of my local government, and not following advice from posters in this forum who are world wide. .......

The rules of your local government do not force people to abort babies. They "allow" them to abort babies without earthly punishment.

The rules of your local government do not force you to approve of abortion. They will simply punish you if your disapproval goes from mental to physical in certain ways. Even then they allow for certain kinds of physical protest and to a certain limited degree.

But then you know this. You're just trolling.

 

[His student]

There is no biblical oppostion to abortion and that is simply because a foetus was not considered human until birth.

God obviously doesn't consider that to be true - either in the O.T. or the N.T.

You surely don't consider that to be true do you?

I don't know that you're a born again Christian. But if you are you are theologically illiterate if you believe that.

As disciples of Christ we compare scripture with scripture. We bring one outright clearly taught doctrine to bear on others more obscure or difficult. Then we interpret scripture (or our beliefs in the world for that matter) according to what God has told us.

We are taught very clearly that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully human. That full humanity did not come upon Him at birth but at conception.

Human life begins at conception. Therefore the killing of a "fetus" is the murder of a human being and that murder is sin - plain and simple.

Game, set, match!

Anyone who can't figure out from scripture in what "tri-mester" the incarnation (and therefore full humanity) takes place is either biblically illiterate or does not have the Spirit of God to lead them into all truth.

One never can tell for sure. But I take it from the identity you post for yourself that you are perhaps among those who are not solid Bible believers and not simply a Bible based Christian who is not as familiar with the scriptures as they should be.

Even though this is supposedly a "Christian" forum - the administrators seem determined to allow pretty much anyone to post here - even the devil himself.

Participating on threads in the Christian Forums is like a box of chocolates. You never know just what you're going to get.

 

[Foxfyre]

With no screw ups, then you'd be in Heaven or Nirvanna.
This is not that place, and if it was, would you be qualified to enter anyway?
If everything was perfect, wouldn't you stand out some?

Yes, as an imperfect being I fit in with the imperfect pretty well. I would definitely be an outlier if everybody else and everything else was perfect. But I simply do not believe that it is God that creates the imperfect or causes things to be imperfect. I believe it is the free will that he gave us so that we would be able to love. Unfortunately we tend to use that same free will to screw things up.

 

[Matt Evans]

E="SkyWriting, post: 73569620, member: 255843"]I didn't find any limitations. Jesus obeyed Government and was crucified by them.
I'd say that is your natural limit, being crucified by the law.


Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11[/QUOTE]
Obeying the laws of the land is quite a different thing in claiming something is good in God's eyes because those who are in power have made it lawful for you ! It is lawful for you to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex, doesn't mean you have to do it ! It is lawful for you to join the armed forces and commit murder on the battlefield, doesn't mean you should do it or that it is lawful in the eyes of God ! Abortion in the same way is something
that has been made lawful to you by men but is prohibited by God, just because it is legal does that mean every family raising young children are guilty of disobeying the government ? Clearly the answer is no ! What Christ meant by this was that we are to obey the government in terms of not doing which has been made illegal, cannabis has been made legal in many western countries and states, should we all smoke weed now to feel like we are obeying the government ? You see how silly your point looks ? Personally if a law came out which requires me to violate any of God's laws (and there will come a time when this happens) then I for one will happily disobey the government ! It's open to interpretation
and I guess that will all depend on whose laws your value most, God's laws or those of man !

 

[SkyWriting]

Obeying the laws of the land is quite a different thing in claiming something is good in God's eyes because those who are in power have made it lawful for you !

Personally if a law came out which requires me to violate any of God's laws (and there will come a time when this happens) then I for one will happily disobey the government !

My claim is that local government is God's will. So to do otherwise is wrong.
1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

 

[SkyWriting]

... But I simply do not believe that it is God that creates the imperfect or causes things to be imperfect. ...

OK
This passages says God creates local government
Some don't seem perfect though.
But if you say God creates perfect government,
it's not exactly my point, but I won't argue with you.

Daniel 2:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
20 and said:

“Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
wisdom and power are his.
21 He changes times and seasons;
he deposes kings and raises up others.
He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning.

 

[SkyWriting]

If God's will diverges from that of the "local government," it is obvious that God's will is the one His children are to follow. Would you have followed the Nazi government in Germany, murdering Jews, gypsies, and the mental deficient in concentration camps? Or would you have obeyed God rather than men?

Local government first becasue the scripture (just above #173) says local government is the Fathers will. Individual men, followed last.

 

[SkyWriting]

Anything that happens, God has to allow. That doesn't mean that it is what God wills. It just means that God allows it.

Post #173 passages say government is the will of the Father.

 

[SkyWriting]

So Daniel should've bowed to Babylon's idols?

I can't find this story.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think some might interpret it that way. But you really can't use the Scriptures to make that specific case.

It would be OK for me to try though?

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Revelation 19:6
Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God.”

Job 42:2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Jeremiah 32:17
‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Zoii]

cannabis has been made legal in many western countries and states, should we all smoke weed now to feel like we are obeying the government ?

I understood the point of your post - I just wanted to point out one of several flaws in your ethical argument - Laws passed to legalise an action, does NOT mean that all are required to do it.

So a law allowing someone to smoke marijuana, does NOT mean all must smoke marijuana. That was a flawed argument.

 

[aiki]

Local government first becasue the scripture (just above #173) says local government is the Fathers will. Individual men, followed last.

And your answer to my question? Will you give it? Would you have participated in the Nazi extermination of the Jews if you'd been a citizen of Germany at the time of the Nazis rise to governmental power? Also, on what basis do you elevate the command to obey governmental authorities above all other commands God gives? Do you know what the First and Great Commandment is? It isn't to obey local civic authorities.