I do not understand the point you were making in post #1048.
I don't understand why you don't understand.
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I do not understand the point you were making in post #1048.
And none of that changes the fact that I have personally shown you, and you have reacted to, hard proof that what you keep posting about the origins of the pre-trib doctrine is incorrect. The people who originally made these statements may have simply been misinformed. But to continue to post this material after seeing proof that it is not true constitutes an outright lie.
At least in the neighborhood of two dozen writers had taught a pre-tribulation rapture before the time your sources claim it was "invented." End of story. And after reviewing their work, I did not see that the one who claimed Grant Jefferies was being dishonest were themselves any more honest than he was.If the "hard proof" is your claim that Irenaeus was talking about your version of the pretrib removal of the Church when he said there would be great tribulation after the church is "caught up", I would be very careful about using the word "lie".
When Grant Jeffrey cut and pasted the writings of the Early Church Fathers, to make your doctrine work, would you call Jeffrey's effort a lie?
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf
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At least in the neighborhood of two dozen writers had taught a pre-tribulation rapture before the time your sources claim it was "invented." End of story. And after reviewing heir work, I did not see that the one who claimed Grant Jefferies was being dishonest were themselves any more honest than he was.
Irenaeus wrote:Your definition of a "pre-tribulation" rapture, does not match the one found in scripture, or the understanding of many others who you claim prove your man-made doctrine.
Irenaeus wrote:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'
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Irenaeus, obviously referring to Matthew 24:21, seems to be talking about the rapture taking place before the great tribulation which begins when the Abomination of Desolation is standing in a holy place.
The pre-trib rapture, in it's traditional concept as meaning before the 70th week begins, would be before the Abomination of Desolation... but it is not exactly the same thing as what Irenaeus wrote.
As Irenaeus taught, the rapture only has to take place before the Abomination of Desolation, not before the beginning of the 70th week.
Irenaeus wrote:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'
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Irenaeus, obviously referring to Matthew 24:21, seems to be talking about the rapture taking place before the great tribulation which begins when the Abomination of Desolation is standing in a holy place.
The pre-trib rapture, in it's traditional concept as meaning before the 70th week begins, would be before the Abomination of Desolation... but it is not exactly the same thing as what Irenaeus wrote.
As Irenaeus taught, the rapture only has to take place before the Abomination of Desolation, not before the beginning of the 70th week.
Irenaeus does not rule out that the rapture could occur before the 70th week begins, but his view doesn't mandate it.
AND, in describing the people who would go through this time, Irenaeus CHANGED his pronouns at this point in the scenario he foresaw. Before this time, he ALWAYS described the people experiencing those times, as "we" or "us," and their belongings as "ours." And after that time, he ALWAYS described the people experiencing those times as "they" or "them," and their belongings as "theirs."
This PROVES that he really meant what he appeared to have been saying.
In Irenaus's writing, we should only be concerned with Matthew 24:21 because he appears to be quoting from that passage.Like others, you are assuming that Irenaeus is using the word "tribulation" in the manner that makes your doctrine work.
Look below at the use of the word "tribulation" in the New Testament.
On the day that 2 Peter 3:10-13 occurs there will be "tribulation" on this earth that has never been seen before, and will never be seen again.
This planet is going to burn.
Mat_13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mat_24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Mat_24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mar_4:17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
Mar_13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Mar_13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Rom_2:9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
Rom_5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom_12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
2Co_1:4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co_7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
1Th_3:4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
2Th_1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
Rev_1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev_2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Rev_7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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No not me. I believe the great tribulation lasts 1335 days.You are trying to change "great tribulation" into the "great tribulation period of 7 years", in order to make your doctrine work.
I say 7 year 70th week, not 7 year tribulation. I disagree with the term 7 year tribulation.
But you agree that I am not saying 7 year tribulation or tribulation period, right?A future 70th week of Daniel is one of the pillars of modern Dispensational Theology.
It requires a person to believe the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant.
A lot of Partial Preterists see that as fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem.............You are trying to change "great tribulation" into the "great tribulation period of 7 years", in order to make your doctrine work.
Mat 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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I have not yet presented this evidence to him. As far as I know, I am the first person to do an exhaustive analysis of the pronouns used in these twelve chapters. But my analysis was indeed exhaustive. I went line by line through the entire twelve chapters of this end time scenario presented by Irenaeus.You haven't proved anything to Dr. Thomas Ice, Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:
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Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]
However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
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I have not yet presented this evidence to him. As far as I know, I am the first person to do an exhaustive analysis of the pronouns used in these twelve chapters. But my analysis was indeed exhaustive. I went line by line through the entire twelve chapters of this end time scenario presented by Irenaeus.
The term "new covenant" is not in the text of Daniel 9, right? Nor even described. It can't be, because otherwise Satan with fore knowledge of what the new covenant would be based on, would not have taken part in having Jesus crucified. 1Corinthians2:7-8.
That there would be a new covenant, yes. But not the information of how it would come about. It was closed from anyone's understanding until after the resurrection. This is very important to know.The New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was recorded before the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel.
Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel appeared.