A Challenge to Christian Zionists

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jgr

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God did not make the division at the time (you're adding to scripture if you claim he did), they were still his people throughout Kings when they repeatedly turned away (as a nation) and came back to him.
Amos 3:1-2 deals very clearly with all of the posts above - ""You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
I.E. - They can still be his chosen people, whilst being punished !
Let's also be careful that in lamenting Israel with disobedience and unfaithfulness, - WE fall into those traps on a regular basis. Whenever we succumb to temptation, sin, sinful thoughts or actions, - we too are being disobedient. So let's be careful not to cast the first stone.

The law of Moses was established without ethnic distinction (Genesis 17:12) at the beginning of covenant history, many centuries before Amos was written.

God slew Israelites by the thousands for unfaithfulness and disobedience during that time. (e.g. Numbers 25:9)

Their punishment was death.

Their DNA did not save them.
 
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keras

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What, like the sabbath ? ;-) Just kidding.
You're started on the wrong foot, - who God chose to be his own possession
(Psalm 135:4) when he formed the nations is pertinent when discussing God's chosen people.
Jesus declaring those who will follow him (his then current, and future disciples) is an entirely different thread.
Actually I, and you too probably, do celebrate the Sabbath. Sabbath; literally the seventh day. My working week starts on Monday and six days later Sunday is my day of rest and Church activities.

Who is it that Jesus chose? John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10
Role Reversal:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

However, it is only a few of the many generations of believers since the time of Jesus, who have understood the truth of how the amazing role reversals in God’s great plan have unfolded in world history. The majority who have been taught only part of the Gospel, now naively believe that Israel, namely the Jewish people as an ethnic group still have a place in God’s plan and they will be removed to safety.

Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 2:4-5

As everyone knows, the Jewish nation refused the leadership of Jesus Christ. Despite the fact of the free gift of the Lord’s unmerited favour being now available to all peoples, many Christians refuse to accept any termination of God’s grace towards physical Israel, instead insisting the salvation of all the Jews in Christ will happen when Jesus Returns. They do this because the separation of Israel and the Church is an immutable tenet of the rapture theory.

But the Old Testament prophets stated the redemption of the remnant of Israel was to happen in a way that would cause the roles to reverse when it occurred.

In the passage that speaks of Israel as the “clay” and the Lord as the “potter,” Jeremiah 18:1-6, saw how the Lord was going to reconfigure Israel from a flesh and blood family into a spiritual entity, through Jesus. John 3:16

Romans 9:8…It isn’t the children of Abraham by natural descent who are the people of God, but all those born into God’s Promise, Jesus, who are the true children of faith.

Isaiah 29:14-16 & Habakkuk 1:5 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a great work and a wonder…Surely Your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? You will not believe this work when you are told of it.

The “work”, or the object of the potter’s effort, was the advent of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for all people and it was performed to fulfill God’s promise to bring about the spiritual Israel of God, consisting of individuals from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, Ephesians 2:11-18

As the Apostle Paul spoke Romans 9:21 to the Jews who rejected the salvation offered by Jesus, he indicated the long prophesied role reversal, in which the Lord’s chosen people transitioned from an earthly family to a Spiritual body, had occurred in the astonishing life of the carpenter from Nazareth: Matthew 28:19

Acts 13:26-27 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you fears God, to you is the Word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath day, that they have fulfilled those prophesies in condemning Jesus. Matthew 21:43
 
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BABerean2

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Actually I, and you too probably, do celebrate the Sabbath. Sabbath; literally the seventh day. My working week starts on Monday and six days later Sunday is my day of rest and Church activities.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, based on Hebrews 8:13, and Colossians 2:16-17.

The idea that the Sabbath was changed sundown Friday until sundown Saturday to anytime Sunday comes from the Catholic church.
It is not found in the Bible.

Nowhere in the New Testament is the Church commanded to keep a Sabbath day.
However, it was a common practice of the first century Church to assemble and worship on the day that Christ rose from the dead.

Christ is our Sabbath rest every day of the week, for those in the New Covenant.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, based on Hebrews 8:13, and Colossians 2:16-17.

The idea that the Sabbath was changed sundown Friday until sundown Saturday to anytime Sunday comes from the Catholic church.
It is not found in the Bible.

Nowhere in the New Testament is the Church commanded to keep a Sabbath day.
However, it was a common practice of the first century Church to assemble and worship on the day that Christ rose from the dead.

Christ is our Sabbath rest every day of the week, for those in the New Covenant.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:2-4
 
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Biblewriter

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The law of Moses was established without ethnic distinction (Genesis 17:12) at the beginning of covenant history, many centuries before Amos was written.

God slew Israelites by the thousands for unfaithfulness and disobedience during that time. (e.g. Numbers 25:9)

Their punishment was death.

Their DNA did not save them.
Genesis 17:2 was 450 years before the law of Moses. (See Galatians 3:17)

But the rest of this post ignores the central essence of end time prophecy, which is God's final plan for Israel and for the world.

The scriptures cannot be more clear in explicitly teaching that in the end times, the nation of Israel will be regathered in their land. But it also could not be more clear in teaching that when they are gathered, God will purge out the rebels from among them before they are brought into blessing. And then it explicitly and repeatedly teaches that all the rest of them will repent and turn back to their God with their whole hearts.

So a simple belief in what God says in the prophetic scriptures does not even imply that anyone will ever be saved "just because he is a Jew," or "just because of their DNA." For the scriptures very plainly teach that the entire population of Israel will be reduced to those among them that turn back to their God "with their whole heart." And THAT is how "all Israel will be saved."
 
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jgr

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Genesis 17:2 was 450 years before the law of Moses. (See Galatians 3:17)

But the rest of this post ignores the central essence of end time prophecy, which is God's final plan for Israel and for the world.

The scriptures cannot be more clear in explicitly teaching that in the end times, the nation of Israel will be regathered in their land. But it also could not be more clear in teaching that when they are gathered, God will purge out the rebels from among them before they are brought into blessing. And then it explicitly and repeatedly teaches that all the rest of them will repent and turn back to their God with their whole hearts.

So a simple belief in what God says in the prophetic scriptures does not even imply that anyone will ever be saved "just because he is a Jew," or "just because of their DNA." For the scriptures very plainly teach that the entire population of Israel will be reduced to those among them that turn back to their God "with their whole heart." And THAT is how "all Israel will be saved."

Never yet have you defined God's identification criteria for "Israel". Is it:

1. Israel by DNA
2. Israel by culture
3. Israel by religion
4. Israel by faith and obedience

Wanna take a stab at it this time?
 
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keras

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Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved. Romans 11.25-26

Paul wants the reader to understand the mystery of the partial hardening of Israel and the hope that all Israel will be saved. Unfortunately, although Paul was intending to make the mystery clear to the reader, that sentence has proved to be most puzzling for those who are trying to understand who is the Israel Paul refers to. There are several ways to interpret the meaning of Romans 11:26:

The Elect. Both Jew and Gentile; the Church of individual Christian believers.
In the context of all Paul’s teachings: all Israel of Romans 11.26 refers to all of the elect, both Jew and Gentile. In other words, the church has become the Israel of God. Indeed, Paul redefined basic terms of Judaism several times in his writings. In Galatians 6.16, Paul described those in Christ as the Israel of God. He redefined circumcision, Philippians 3.3, Colossians 2.11-12, and what it means to be a descendant of Abraham.

In Romans 9-11, he wrote that not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel, Romans 9.6 and that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, with no distinction between Jew and Greek. Galatians 3:29

Beginning with Romans 11.13, Paul warned the Gentiles not to be arrogant towards the branches, meaning that the Gentile believers were not to think of themselves as more loved by God since most Jews have rejected the Messiah. After all, Gentiles were only grafted in by God’s grace and mercy. But non-ethnic people ARE grafted into the Israel of God, by reason of their belief in God and their faith in Him.



Ethnic Israel. The Jewish people, plus the 10 tribes still scattered among the nations.
Another way that some have understood the “all Israel” of Romans 11.26 is that Paul was writing of the ethnic Jewish nation of Israel . In other words, Paul meant that at some point in time in the future, after the fullness of the Gentiles had come into the Kingdom of God, the ethnic descendants of Jacob would be saved. It is hardly likely that: all Israel means every descendant of Jacob that had ever lived or those Israelites who will be alive at the time when the fullness of the Gentiles becomes complete. Regardless, the basic tenet of this view is that after the full number of the elect Gentiles had come to faith in Christ, there would be a mass conversion of Israel to faith in Christ. Most think that this would happen just prior to or at the moment of Christ’s Return, when: the Deliverer will come from Zion. At this point, the Messiah would banish ungodliness from Jacob, which some take to mean that God would remove the hardening upon Israel. Romans 11.25

There are two major difficulties with this view. The first problem deals with the proper interpretation of two small Greek words. The first word of interest is the Greek word ούτώς in Romans 11.26. The basic meaning of the word is in this manner (Thayer’s Greek Definitions) and usually has a modal sense: dealing with the manner of Israel’s salvation, and never a temporal sense: dealing with the timing of Israel’s salvation.

The NIV interprets Romans 11.26 to read, And so, all Israel will be saved, which could be read: and after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then all Israel will be saved, but this is not the best interpretation of the text. The ESV captures it better by reading: And in this way, all Israel will be saved. The “in this way” has already been clearly explained by Paul in Romans 10:8-17… faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ and there is no distinction between Jew and Greek as to the manner of salvation.

The second Greek word of interest is άχρι in Romans 11.25. The basic meaning is “until” and is essentially terminative in its significance, implying the end of something. But the context alone determines whether the emphasis is upon what happens after the end of something or upon the end itself. For example, in 1 Corinthians 11.26, Paul instructed the church about the Lord’s Supper saying: For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

The emphasis was not that the church would cease to celebrate the Supper after the Lord’s return but that the Lord’s Return would terminate the celebration of the Supper. Another example is 1 Corinthians 15.25 where Paul wrote that Christ must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The point was not that there would come a time when Christ would no longer reign but that He would continue to reign until the last enemy was conquered.

It seems that the entire idea of a future mass conversion of Israel at some point in history’s future at the return of Christ depends upon these two words being interpreted in a way that is contrary to the context.



But the second major difficulty is that it seems to imply, or at least many who hold to this interpretation insist upon, that the way unto salvation for Israel will be different than the way of salvation for the Gentiles. Some have suggested that the conversion of all of Israel will happen through a direct revelation of Christ prior to the Second Coming, much like what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus. But this seems to contradict the point of Romans 10-11, that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Gospel. It would seem that Romans 10:6 would be rendered meaningless, too.

Others have suggested that there is a two track way to salvation, one for the Gentiles and one for the Jews. In other words, while the Gentiles are being saved by grace through faith, the Jews will be saved by their faithfulness to the Sinai covenant. But this contradicts the entire teaching of the book of Romans. How could Paul write: by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight. Romans 3.20, and then imply that the Jews will be saved if they return to being faithful to the law? Furthermore, if there are two ways to enter the Kingdom of God, then Paul’s analogy of the olive tree, makes no sense.

Others have suggested that the future mass conversion of the Jewish people will indeed be the mystery that Paul wrote about. At some point in the future, the hardening will be removed and the Jews, as a whole but not necessarily every single Jewish person, will believe in Jesus and confess Him as Savior and Lord. While this is a wonderful thought, and would indeed be a mystery, it does not fit the plain reading of the text.

Despite the interpretation of “until” and “so” of Romans 11.25-26 that was mentioned above, it should be noted that Paul has been speaking in the present tense throughout Romans 11. He wrote of the remnant chosen by grace at this present time. Romans 11.5 He was hopeful that his ministry might make his fellow Jews jealous in order to save some of them, Romans 11.13-14 He also was hopeful that that those who were disobedient may “now” receive mercy. Romans 11.30-31

It seems that Paul was in anguish for his kinsmen according to the flesh to be saved, to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. If he were confident that at some point in the future “all Israel would be saved,” then why be in anguish? Indeed, he knew that not all obeyed the gospel. Romans 10.16

In addition, if Paul did write about a future conversion of all of Israel, then this would be the only place in the New Testament where this last days idea is introduced. Jesus did not speak of it in Matthew 24, nor did Paul write of it in 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 where he wrote of God’s wrath coming upon the disbelieving Jews until the end. It is missing from the vision given to John in the book of Revelation.

The Elect Among Israel:
In this interpretation, the “all Israel” of Romans 11.26 refers to the elect Israelites from among Israel throughout history. In other words, Paul was saying that a partial hardening, not a full hardening, has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. But the elect of Israel will be saved in the same way that Paul had been describing in Romans 9-11: faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

This reading seems to be the most natural way to read Romans 9-11. Paul already confirmed that: not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, Romans 9.6, and: Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. Romans 9.27

Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, both Jews and Gentiles, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, but it will be the predestined who are called and the called who are justified. Romans 8.29-30 God has not rejected His people, for at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. Romans 11.1-7 And while the Gentiles can rejoice that they have been grafted into the Kingdom of God, God has the power to graft the Jews, the natural branches, back into the olive tree. The mystery is that the Jews who were given every advantage to believe have hardened themselves against Jesus. As regards the gospel, Israel as a whole has been an enemy of God, but the elect are loved for the calling and election of God is irrevocable. And just as the Gentiles have come to faith because of disobedience and rejection by the Jews, so too; many Jews will come to faith by seeing the mercy of God displayed to the Gentiles.

There has always been, and continues to be, a remnant chosen by grace among the Jews who believe that Jesus is the Christ, that God raised Him from the dead, and who confess Him as Lord. But they are only a small portion of the entire Christian Israel of God.

Therefore it is as Revelation 5:9-10 says: people from every tribe, race, nation and language are made unto God His rulers and priests, His overcomers on earth, the Israelites of God. ALL the faithful Christian people.
 
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Biblewriter

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Never yet have you defined God's identification criteria for "Israel". Is it:

1. Israel by DNA
2. Israel by culture
3. Israel by religion
4. Israel by faith and obedience

Wanna take a stab at it this time?

the blessing goes to Israel by God's standard, which is by DNA AND by faith and obedience.
 
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jgr

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the blessing goes to Israel by God's standard, which is by DNA AND by faith and obedience.

Genesis 17:12
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

When and where did God change His mind?
 
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Biblewriter

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Genesis 17:12
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

When and where did God change His mind?
never
 
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Right. So DNA was never a criterion.
wrong. DNA ALONE was never the criterion. But it is one of the criteria for the future blessing promised to Israel alone.

There is future blessing for the entire world. But a special blessing for Israel. And whoever denies this is denying a vast amount of explicitly stated scripture.
 
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BABerean2

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wrong. DNA ALONE was never the criterion. But it is one of the criteria for the future blessing promised to Israel alone.

There is future blessing for the entire world. But a special blessing for Israel. And whoever denies this is denying a vast amount of explicitly stated scripture.

The fulfillment of "Israel" is found in the verse below in the first verse of the New Testament, and is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


You are ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in the scripture below.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.
 
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The fulfillment of "Israel" is found in the verse below in the first verse of the New Testament, and is confirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


You are ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in the scripture below.

1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. 38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-40
 
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jgr

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wrong. DNA ALONE was never the criterion. But it is one of the criteria for the future blessing promised to Israel alone.

There is future blessing for the entire world. But a special blessing for Israel. And whoever denies this is denying a vast amount of explicitly stated scripture.

DNA was not a criterion in Genesis 17:12.

When and where did God change His mind and make it a criterion?
 
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31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. 38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-40

In the NKJV below the Old Testament text is written in Uppercase letters.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

In the two passages above from the New Testament we find the Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted word-for-word, with the word "now" added to it.
Are you still going to claim that Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled?

If that is what you must do to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work, you have exposed the doctrine for what it really is...


.
 
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Biblewriter

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DNA was not a criterion in Genesis 17:12.

When and where did God change His mind and make it a criterion?
Genesis 17:12 did not even imply that the land promise applied to anyone who was not a descendant of Abraham, nor does any other scripture.
 
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Biblewriter

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In the NKJV below the Old Testament text is written in Uppercase letters.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

In the two passages above from the New Testament we find the Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted word-for-word, with the word "now" added to it.
Are you still going to claim that Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled?

If that is what you must do to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work, you have exposed the doctrine for what it really is...


.

Are you still going to pretend that all of the Hebrews now "know the Lord," (or at any time have known the Lord)? You KNOW this has not happened. It is both foolish and dishonest to keep pretending that a promise has been fulfilled when you are absolutely unable to deny that it contains provisions which have still not been kept.

The scriptures you keep quoting indeed say things that you want to interpret to mean that the promise has been fulfilled. But you are simply unable to even pretend that all of the provisions of that promise have ever been fulfilled.
 
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keras

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Are you still going to pretend that all of the Hebrews now "know the Lord," (or at any time have known the Lord)? You KNOW this has not happened. It is both foolish and dishonest to keep pretending that a promise has been fulfilled when you are absolutely unable to deny that it contains provisions which have still not been kept.

The scriptures you keep quoting indeed say things that you want to interpret to mean that the promise has been fulfilled. But you are simply unable to even pretend that all of the provisions of that promise have ever been fulfilled.
But James; Who ARE the Hebrews?
Do you really think they are just those who call themselves Jews? As they are not 'many nations and as many as the sands of the seashore', then that idea is impossible.

You demand that the Promises of God be given to all those who claim to be of Israel? Isn't that just a little way out there, let alone ignoring plain NT teachings of how all the Promises of God are Yes in Him; that is they will be fulfilled thru Jesus and His followers. Romans 8:14-20
Far from the Bible saying that Judah will be redeemed and Blessed in the last days, their virtual demise is extensively prophesied. Romans 9:27
 
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jgr

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Genesis 17:12 did not even imply that the land promise applied to anyone who was not a descendant of Abraham, nor does any other scripture.

It applied to all who would comply with the covenant that God made with Abraham, which included the land and all other associated promises, whether they were of his seed, or not of his seed, beginning with the circumcision of infant males.

That compliance always consisted exclusively of faith and obedience. In the case of infant circumcision, it was manifested in the obedience of those who performed the circumcision in response to God's covenant command. Ultimately, as the infant matured, it was manifested in either ongoing faith and obedience in and to God and His covenant, with the concomitant blessings; or unfaithfulness and disobedience, culminating in death.

Both ethnic and nonethnic Israelites shared equally in God's covenant blessings in response to their faith and obedience, and in His covenant punishment in response to their unfaithfulness and disobedience.

There is no Scripture to be found wherein God segregates Israelites who were of Abraham's seed from those who were not of his seed. God is not a racist. He does not practise apartheid.

Notwithstanding dispensationalism's incessant attempts to force Him into its racialized mold.
 
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