The Incomplete Gospel of the modern Church

[BABerean2]

The Apostle Paul was able to preach Christ to the Jews of his day by using the Old Testament.
The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.

Why have I never seen these three passages connected together on Christian television?

Some Christians claim the New Covenant is for Israel in the future, because of their man-made doctrine. Many of those from this school of interpretation have taken over Christian television in the United States.
Therefore, they are presenting an incomplete version of the Gospel.

This has been very damaging in our efforts to take the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews.

Act 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Act 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
Act 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Act 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.


Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of doing what Paul did in the passage above?

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[BABerean2]

Dispensationalist Dr. John MacArthur does an excellent job of presenting Isaiah chapter 53 to Orthodox Jew Ben Shapiro.

However, because of his belief in the Two Peoples of God doctrine, he failed to present the fulfillment of the New Covenant, and he did not mention Daniel chapter 9.

What he presented was well intended, but an incomplete version of the Gospel found in the Old Testament.

If we compare the Old Testament Gospel to a block of firewood, why would we split it into 3 pieces, and then present only one piece?

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[BABerean2]

Why had this American Orthodox Jew never heard about the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

He had to find it himself.
When he did, he came to realize that the last 27 books of the Bible are about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:18-24).

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[Biblewriter]

Some Christians claim the New Covenant is for Israel in the future, because of their man-made doctrine. Many of those from this school of interpretation have taken over Christian television in the United States.
Therefore, they are presenting an incomplete version of the Gospel.

The indisputable fact remains, that as long as there is even one Jew, anywhere in the entire world, that does not "know the Lord," the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled.

 

[BABerean2]

The indisputable fact remains, that as long as there is even one Jew, anywhere in the entire world, that does not "know the Lord," the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled.

You can make the above statement work is by denying Christ's final words on the Cross.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Then cut the word "now" out of Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 8:13, and Hebrews 10:18.

Then deny the verse below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


While you are at it, cut all of the verses below which contain the words "new covenant", out of your Bible.

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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If you think the New Covenant has not yet been fulfilled because a single Jew has rejected it, you have revealed one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.

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[Biblewriter]

You can make the above statement work is by denying Christ's final words on the Cross.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Then cut the word "now" out of Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 8:13, and Hebrews 10:18.

Then deny the verse below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


While you are at it, cut all of the verses below which contain the words "new covenant", out of your Bible.

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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If you think the New Covenant has not yet been fulfilled because a single Jew has rejected it, you have revealed one of the greatest errors of your doctrine.

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No denial of anything the scriptures actually say is required to maintain our system. The only things that we deny are the interpretations you place upon what the scriptures say.

But your system absolutely requires you to deny that the new covenant promised to Israel is that "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD."

There is absolutely no way you can even pretend that "all" of "the house of Israel," and of "the house of Judah," "from the least to the greatest," has ever, even to this day, come to "know the Lord." But that is what God EXPLICITLY said was "the new Covenant." in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

And the Holy Spirit followed this with an exceedingly absolute statement that He would never "cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done." And that "the seed of Israel" would absolutely never "cease from being a nation before me."

And in calling "the seed of Israel" both "they," and "a nation," the Holy Spirit made it exceedingly clear that He was here not speaking of the one seed of Abraham, Christ, but the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

But in order to maintain your system of interpretation, you absolutely have to deny all of these undeniable truths.

 

[BABerean2]

But your system absolutely requires you to deny that the new covenant promised to Israel is that "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD."

Is the law put into the hearts of those in the New Covenant, in a way that causes "all" of them to have their own internal teacher?
What do we find below?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(Do you deny that the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those in the New Covenant?)


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(Do you deny the fulfillment of the passage above, which quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34?)


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If the verse above is true of you, and me, and "all" who are in the New Covenant, then Jeremiah 31:34 has been fulfilled for all of those who are members of the New Covenant, through the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit within that person.

This fact is one of the foundations of our faith.
No person can enter the kingdom without being "born again" of the Spirit of God, as found in John 3:1-16.

You are also attempting to ignore the fact that the first members of the New Covenant were those who Peter addressed as "all the house of Israel", on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts of the Apostles 2:36.
They were physical descendants.
Do you think Peter was confused on that day?


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[Douggg]

Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of doing what Paul did in the passage above?

I think that is an naccurate charge against the body of Christ. Different parts of the body are called to do different things. The Jews of our day have been preached the gospel with as much references to prophecies in the old testament (Tanach) as Paul did and more.

And parallel to those efforts, the jewish religious faction has been perfecting, sharpening, and intensifying their countermissionary arguments as well. Tovia Singer, Jews for Judaism, as examples. Isaiah 53 is an example, you will find is intensely countered at their sites, books, articles, and videos.

And what was true regarding the Jews's and Jesus in Paul's day is still true today...
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[BABerean2]

I think that is an naccurate charge against the body of Christ. Different parts of the body are called to do different things. The Jews of our day have been preached the gospel with as much references to prophecies in the old testament (Tanach) as Paul did and more.

Why then did the man in the video below have to find the promise of the New Covenant, himself?

My wife and I spent several years in a church body that taught modern Dispensational Theology.
During that whole time I never heard a Sunday-school lesson, or a sermon that even mentioned the New Covenant.

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[Douggg]

My wife and I spent several years in a church body that taught modern Dispensational Theology.
During that whole time I never heard a Sunday-school lesson, or a sermon that even mentioned the New Covenant.

Did they preach Jesus and Salvation by his being crucified and resurrection? If so, they are preaching the New Covenant.

 

[BABerean2]

Did they preach Jesus and Salvation by his being crucified and resurrection? If so, they are preaching the New Covenant.

I am glad you understand the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary, unlike some here who are in denial of this fact.

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[Douggg]

I am glad you understand the New Covenant was fulfilled at Calvary, unlike some here who are in denial of this fact.

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Fullfilled at the cross and the resurrection. The prophecies concerning Israel embracing the new covenant still remains until the middle part of the 7years.

 

[BABerean2]

The prophecies concerning Israel embracing the new covenant still remains until the middle part of the 7years.

You are attempting to ignore the word "now" found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, in an effort to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

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[Douggg]

your Two Peoples of God doctrine

You are goading. And false witnessing. I have stated that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities. That's the doctrine. Don't repackage it into a different doctrine, implying that there are two ways to be saved.

New Covenant theology has a different doctrine regarding Israel. And has been broadly criticized for it. Don't lash back by misstating what them critical of the New Covenant theology group believe and have as their doctrine - namely that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities.

It is okay and appropriate to say I hold a doctrine that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities.

 

[BABerean2]

You are goading. And false witnessing. I have stated that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities. That's the doctrine.

How can it be "goading" for me to state what you have just confirmed above to be your belief?

"I have stated that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities."

Anyone who believes the Church and Israel are two distinct entities has to ignore how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost, as "all the house of Israel".
On that day part of Israel became the New Covenant Church.

You have to ignore Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, and many other passages to make your "two distinct entities" doctrine work.

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[Douggg]

How can it be "goading" for me to state what you have just confirmed above to be your belief?

"I have stated that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities."

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Under the rules of the forum goading is when you repackage what some-one said into a different statement, i..e changing up the meaning of what they said.

When you say two peoples of God - that is not what I am saying (or any other person here that I know of is saying). When you say two peoples of God, it implies that there are two ways to Salvation.

__________________________________________________________________________

Anyone who believes the Church and Israel are two distinct entities has to ignore how Peter addressed the crowd on the Day of Pentecost, as "all the house of Israel".

On that day part of Israel became the New Covenant Church.

You have to ignore Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, and many other passages to make your "two distinct entities" doctrine work.

That is a flawed argument because Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 is speaking about Israel as distinct from the church.

Ezekiel
Chapter 39

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Obviously, the church did not go into captivity among the nations for having trespassed against Jesus.
Obviously, the church believes that Jesus is God, and Lord.
Obviously, Jesus did not hide his face from the church.
Obviously, gathered into their own land is not talking about the church.
Obviously, Jesus has already poured out His spirit on the church.

Obviously, Israel is a distinct entity from the church.


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The Jews went into captivity 2000 years ago because they rejected Jesus. They returned to the land of Israel in 1948, becoming a country again, but not yet embracing Jesus. The Jews regained control of Jerusalem, and is now recognized by the United States as Israel's capital, and the U.S. embassy is there.

Israel still has not embraced Jesus as the messiah. In Revelation 12, the woman in the chapter, after
for most of the first half of the 7 years, thinking that the Antichrist person is their messiah, but are betrayed by him - turn to Jesus and receive Him and the new covenant gospel, in Revelation 12:10-11.

Satan, (future) having been cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, thus will persecute the woman, Israel, now (for the second half of the 7 years) having the testimony of Jesus and keeping the commandments of God, for a time, times, half times. Which Jesus then returns and destroys the armies gathered to make war on him in Ezekiel 39:17-20 and speaks in Ezekiel 39:21-29 about Israel - as it's own entity, not as having been the church, treated differently during those 2000 years - which NO ONE can deny who actually reads the text.

The doctrine I hold that Israel is distinct from the Church is 100% totally valid, based on Jesus's words Himself.

 

[BABerean2]

When you say two peoples of God, it implies that there are two ways to Salvation.

I am implying no such thing.
The majority of Dispensationalists that I know personally who hold to the Two Peoples of God doctrine would agree with us that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ.

However, some forms of Dual-Covenant Theology are another matter.
Some, but not all, promoters of this doctrine have implied that modern Jews do not need Christ for salvation, because they are under a different covenant with God.
John Hagee of Cornerstone Church has made comments in the past that promoted this concept.

Are you confused?

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[Douggg]

I am implying no such thing.
The majority of Dispensationalists that I know personally who hold to the Two Peoples of God doctrine would agree with us that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ.

However, some forms of Dual-Covenant Theology are another matter.
Some, but not all, promoters of this doctrine have implied that modern Jews do not need Christ for salvation, because they are under a different covenant with God.
John Hagee of Cornerstone Church has made comments in the past that promoted this concept.

Are you confused?

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The terminology "two peoples of God" itself implies it. For one thing, "two peoples" could be Chinese and Italians. The doctrine I hold is not about two peoples. But two entities, the Church, and Israel.

It is okay and appropriate to say I hold a doctrine that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities.

Are you confused?

No, I am not confused. Just stop referring to the doctrine I hold as something different, and by a different label.

 

[BABerean2]

The terminology "two peoples of God" itself implies it. For one thing, "two peoples" could be Chinese and Italians.

When you say "Chinese and Italians" do you mean people from a specific racial group, or people who live in a certain geographic location?
There are many different races of people who now live in Italy, and there are Americans who now live in China.

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[iamlamad]

The terminology "two peoples of God" itself implies it. For one thing, "two peoples" could be Chinese and Italians. The doctrine I hold is not about two peoples. But two entities, the Church, and Israel.

It is okay and appropriate to say I hold a doctrine that the Church and Israel are two distinct entities.




No, I am not confused. Just stop referring to the doctrine I hold as something different, and by a different label.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God made promises to the Nation of Israel, and different promises to the church.