How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[MDC]

Don't assume that is true,no.

Remember the son who told his father, yes I will do what you told me to do.
Then he did not do it.

The other son told his father, no, I won't do that, but then he did go and do what his father had told him to do.

Or the one who is righteous all their life, then turn to unrighteousness and sin , as written in Scripture - their righteousness won't be counted for them and they will pay the price for their unrighteousness.

Vs the one who is unrighteous all their life then turn and do righteousness - Neither will their unrighteousness be counted against them.

Why are some made willing and others not?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

None are deserving of Gods mercy is what scripture teaches. You obviously believe the opposite and why it doesn’t sit right with you

Since your assumption, as posted here, is not true, there's no reason to even think your conclusions are true.

 

[St_Worm2]

The “accepters” and “refusers” are obviously operating from two different mindsets or natures.

Agreed. How could it be otherwise?

 

[St_Worm2]

mmm..... according to Scripture, practically too, there is no such to work with.

On what basis do people choose 1 or 2 then?

Thanks!

--David

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

On what basis do people choose 1 or 2 then?

Thanks!

--David

Whatever THEY choose, you will have to ask them.

 

[redleghunter]

Don't assume that is true,no.

Remember the son who told his father, yes I will do what you told me to do.
Then he did not do it.

The other son told his father, no, I won't do that, but then he did go and do what his father had told him to do.

Or the one who is righteous all their life, then turn to unrighteousness and sin , as written in Scripture - their righteousness won't be counted for them and they will pay the price for their unrighteousness.

Vs the one who is unrighteous all their life then turn and do righteousness - Neither will their unrighteousness be counted against them.

As shown in the OP which deals going from children of wrath dead in sin to alive in Christ.

This is not a discussion on whether or not one loses salvation. Paul does not address this but going from being spiritually dead children of Satan to alive in Christ children of God.

Given hearing the Gospel some have ears that hear and some don’t. Some freely choose Christ and some reject. There is obviously two different natures involved in this. How does one come to be a child of God and the other remain a child of wrath?

 

[redleghunter]

Why are some made willing and others not?

Indeed a question at the heart of the OP.

 

[MDC]

Since your assumption, as posted here, is not true, there's no reason to even think your conclusions are true.

If only 10 were chosen and given safe passage to land to survive and the others left to die, would that be just and fair according to your analogy?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As shown in the OP which deals going from children of wrath dead in sin to alive in Christ.

This is not a discussion on whether or not one loses salvation. Paul does not address this but going from being spiritually dead children of Satan to alive in Christ children of God.

Given hearing the Gospel some have ears that hear and some don’t. Some freely choose Christ and some reject. There is obviously two different natures involved in this. How does one come to be a child of God and the other remain a child of wrath?

Go outside and look at some soil.

Then look at some rocks.

Can you make the rocks into soil ? (God can).

Can you make the soil into rocks ? (God can).

But why are the rocks rocks ?
Why is the soil soil ?

Start with what you have. Go from there.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Indeed a question at the heart of the OP.

But not in the heart of Yahweh.

 

[redleghunter]

Agreed. How could it be otherwise?

Which evokes the question of why this is so. Because we know from The Bible some are made alive and others are not.

 

[devin553344]

Hi Devin, as a quick aside (& just to make sure that I am understanding what you said), God the Holy Spirit, who is a Member of the Godhead, is a "Person", yes? (IOW, a "He/Him", not an "it") .. e.g. John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7.

Thanks!

--David

Acts of the Apostles 13
1 There were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.​

.

Yes the Holy Spirit is a person, but the fruits of the spirit are something slightly different, and perhaps that's how my brain was thinking when I wrote it, as said they are fruits of a person: Galatians 5:22-23 The trinity describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as of the same substance if I remember correctly. Substance being a thing or it.

John 1:14 also describes Jesus as being full of grace and truth.

Thanks for pointing out my bad grammar though

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes the Holy Spirit is a person, but the fruits of the spirit are something slightly different, and perhaps that's how my brain was thinking when I wrote it, as said they are fruits of a person: Galatians 5:22-23 The trinity describes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as of the same substance if I remember correctly. Substance being a thing or it.

John 1:14 also describes Jesus as being full of grace and truth.

Thanks for pointing out my bad grammar though

Just making sure (there are many around this place who believe the HS is simply an impersonal "force" of some kind, as I'm sure you already know).

 

[redleghunter]

Go outside and look at some soil.

Then look at some rocks.

Can you make the rocks into soil ? (God can).

Can you make the soil into rocks ? (God can).

But why are the rocks rocks ?
Why is the soil soil ?

Start with what you have. Go from there.

What we have is actually Christ teaching there are soils and the seed (Gospel) falls on all of them but one only produces and is called good soil.

Nothing about changing rocks into good soil. But there is God taking out a heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36).

Which is a spiritual transplant operation performed by God.

So if we go with this more focused Biblical example of God giving us the heart of flesh, then why don’t all get this heart of flesh?

Is there something inherently good in some stony hearts which makes God move to replace it? Or is it by His will and purpose the heart of stone is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh?

Put in perspective that would mean some hear the Gospel with a heart of stone and some with a heart of flesh. We can draw this conclusion given the observed results when Christ returns and He separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[St_Worm2]

Whatever THEY choose, you will have to ask them.

The question remains however, WHY would any reasonable person choose to suffer in everlasting pain and torment* if they could just as easily have chosen to live in bliss, happiness, well-being and peace forever and ever instead

*(the answer cannot simply be, "because that's what they freely chose to do", because that answer, by itself anyway, makes no sense whatsoever)

Thanks!

--David

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nothing about changing rocks into good soil.

But there is God taking out a heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36).

Thus the rock(stone) changed to good soil(heart of flesh), in line with all your posted Scripture.

Something also , written, about "plowing up our backs" ....

 

[MDC]

What we have is actually Christ teaching there are soils and the seed (Gospel) falls on all of them but one only produces and is called good soil.

Nothing about changing rocks into good soil. But there is God taking out a heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36).

Which is a spiritual transplant operation performed by God.

So if we go with this more focused Biblical example of God giving us the heart of flesh, then why don’t all get this heart of flesh?

Is there something inherently good in some stony hearts which makes God move to replace it? Or is it by His will and purpose the heart of stone is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh?

Put in perspective that would mean some hear the Gospel with a heart of stone and some with a heart of flesh. We can draw this conclusion given the observed results when Christ returns and He separates the sheep from the goats.

The two options you gave on why God moves to replace a stony heart with a heart of flesh are no doubt the obvious beliefs that this whole debate hinges on. The later is biblical and sound doctrine

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 1:11-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11
He came to his own homeland,
yet his own people did not receive him.

12 But to as many as did receive him,

to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God,

13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

 

[redleghunter]

But not in the heart of Yahweh.

The OP is based on apostolic teachings. Paul as with Jesus taught in dichotomies and not shades of gray.

We are dead until made alive. We are either children of wrath or children of God.

The OP deals with views on how God calls and people respond and how if we are all children of wrath with a fallen nature then why are the responses to the Gospel different.

 

[redleghunter]

The two options you gave on why God moves to replace a stony heart with a heart of flesh are no doubt the obvious beliefs that this whole debate hinges on. The later is biblical and sound doctrine

Indeed and why it is hard to get answers. Because the honest student of Holy Scriptures knows God’s will and purpose is firmly established in both testaments. Yet it seems unfair or unjust to trust His will and purpose for some.