How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If so then why does this not happen for all?

All who ? All the world ? All the Protestants? All the Independents?
All the men ? All the women ? All the children?

 

[redleghunter]

All who ? All the world ? All the Protestants? All the Independents?
All the men ? All the women ? All the children?

By your quoted verses there are those who are born of God. Then there are those who are not. I believe you made the point we do not conceive ourselves physically and choose our parents and that same parallel made for being born of the Spirit.

We are both not Universalists so some are born of God and some are not.

Why?

 

[danielmears]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

There lies the rub, with God all things are possible...So, our acceptance of Christ as truth, truly God and Christ in us, the living God, love, light and spirit, one with us and we in God, completely changes the dynamic. How we choose this is quite a marvel...

 

[redleghunter]

There lies the rub, with God all things are possible...So, our acceptance of Christ as truth, truly God and Christ in us, the living God, love, light and spirit, one with us and we in God, completely changes the dynamic. How we choose this is quite a marvel...

Good day Daniel. Thanks for the response.

Is your view that it is a mystery and as such be joyful for the call to Christ from God? Or is your view that somehow we have some internal good which leads us to Christ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

By your quoted verses there are those who are born of God. Then there are those who are not. I believe you made the point we do not conceive ourselves physically and choose our parents and that same parallel made for being born of the Spirit.... some are born of God and some are not.
Why?

If a boatload of people is offered safe passage to land,
and only 10 of them accept,
and the other's get blown up/ sunk with the ship, and die.

Why ?

 

[redleghunter]

If a boatload of people is offered safe passage to land,
and only 10 of them accept,
and the other's get blown up/ sunk with the ship, and die.

Why ?

I asked the question.

But yes it would be the nature of those who get on board is different than the ones who refuse.

Again I ask the question why some have the nature to accept and follow and some don’t?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I asked the question. But yes it would be the nature of those who get on board is different than the ones who refuse. Again I ask the question why some have the nature to accept and follow and some don’t?

please don't make me quote the potter and the clay verses, please.

Rather, obey God and keep His Commandments - the sum of life written in Scripture often.

 

[redleghunter]

please don't make me quote the potter and the clay verses, please.

Rather, obey God and keep His Commandments - the sum of life written in Scripture often.

It would be helpful actually if you offer Scriptures to support your view reference the OP topic.

 

[MDC]

If a boatload of people is offered safe passage to land,
and only 10 of them accept,
and the other's get blown up/ sunk with the ship, and die.

Why ?

A better analogy of salvation would be that 10 were shown mercy and GIVEN a safe passage to land, as the others were left and passed over. This wouldn’t sit right with you of course if you believe all were deserving of life and mercy though

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It would be helpful actually if you offer Scriptures to support your view reference the OP topic.

Pick any Book of Scripture- my thinking is only from Scripture, every bit.
Test everything, always, all the time,
by Scripture, as Yahweh Says. Be renewed in mind, having the mind of Christ, by grace through faith, and that faith even is a gift, not earned.

Read Scripture all the time, as often as able. Always seeking Yahweh's Purpose, Plan and Kingdom as He Says, always asking Him for His Wisdom, which is Christ Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

A better analogy of salvation would be that 10 were shown mercy and GIVEN a safe passage to land, as the others were left and passed over. This wouldn’t sit right with you of course if you believe all were deserving of life and mercy though

Even his analogy causes further inquiry.

If there is an equal offer of rescue and some refuse it, we have to ask why the offer was not effective for all.

Some will say well they were given the chance thus satisfying some ethic or moral of justice and fairness. Yet that still does not exaplain given an equal chance some still refuse.

It would have to be explained why some are more equal than others.

 

[St_Worm2]

If a boatload of people is offered safe passage to land,
and only 10 of them accept,
and the other's get blown up/ sunk with the ship, and die.

Why ?

If a boatload of people are told that they can all freely choose to either...........

1. leave the boat and experience everlasting happiness and bliss in Heaven for the rest of eternity,

~or~

2. stay in the boat and go to a place of utter darkness that is characterized by never-ending pain and suffering (24/7 weeping and gnashing of teeth), where the smoke of their torment rises forever,
​

..............why would any normal, reasonable/rational fully-informed person choose #2 (yet most do, according to the Bible .. e.g. Matthew 7:13-14)

Thanks!

--David

 

[redleghunter]

Pick any Book of Scripture- my thinking is only from Scripture, every bit.
Test everything, always, all the time,
by Scripture, as Yahweh Says. Be renewed in mind, having the mind of Christ, by grace through faith, and that faith even is a gift, not earned.

Read Scripture all the time, as often as able. Always seeking Yahweh's Purpose, Plan and Kingdom as He Says, always asking Him for His Wisdom, which is Christ Jesus.

Ok you don’t want to answer this. That’s fine.

 

[redleghunter]

If a boatload of people are told that they can all freely choose to...........

1. Leave the boat and experience everlasting happiness and bliss in Heaven for the rest of eternity,

~or~

2. Stay in the boat and go to a place of utter darkness that is characterized by never-ending pain and suffering, 24/7 weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the smoke of their torment rises forever,
​

..............why would any normal, reasonable/rational fully-informed person choose #2? (yet most do, according to the Bible .. e.g. Matthew 7:13-14)

Thanks!

--David

Case in point which addresses the OP.

The “accepters” and “refusers” are obviously operating from two different mindsets or natures.

 

[devin553344]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

I had just posted regarding the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us that ability for it is life and peace, instead of death like the carnal: Romans 8:6 I think then you simply need to serve and praise God to people, etc to promote the Holy Spirit daily portion, that God may bless you with his holy spirit.

Peace be with you

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A better analogy of salvation would be that 10 were shown mercy and GIVEN a safe passage to land, as the others were left and passed over. .....

That doesn't sit right with Yahweh , nor agree with Scripture, but of course you already knew that, didn't you......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Case in point which addresses the OP.

The “accepters” and “refusers” are obviously operating from two different mindsets or natures.

Don't assume that is true,no.

Remember the son who told his father, yes I will do what you told me to do.
Then he did not do it.

The other son told his father, no, I won't do that, but then he did go and do what his father had told him to do.

Or the one who is righteous all their life, then turn to unrighteousness and sin , as written in Scripture - their righteousness won't be counted for them and they will pay the price for their unrighteousness.

Vs the one who is unrighteous all their life then turn and do righteousness - Neither will their unrighteousness be counted against them.

 

[St_Worm2]

I had just posted regarding the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us that ability for it is life and peace....

Hi Devin, as a quick aside (& just to make sure that I am understanding what you said), God the Holy Spirit, who is a Member of the Godhead, is a "Person", yes? (IOW, a "He/Him", not an "it") .. e.g. John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7.

Thanks!

--David

Acts of the Apostles 13
1 There were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.​

.

 

[MDC]

That doesn't sit right with Yahweh , nor agree with Scripture, but of course you already knew that, didn't you......

None are deserving of Gods mercy is what scripture teaches. You obviously believe the opposite and why it doesn’t sit right with you

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

normal, reasonable/rational fully-informed person

mmm..... according to Scripture, practically too, there is no such to work with.