Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Right, so unless there is fresh opinions and people explaining how Adam and all men had no real choice, it seems like we might not get anywhere in this thread. I don't find your posts clear or simple.

I know that. Most people do, and can actually argue against what I say and believe. I’m not sure where the disconnect is with you. It seems that you have an uninformed idea about Reformed Theology and regardless of what’s said, you won’t come off of it. So you don’t address what I say, but what you filter through what you think.

 

[dad]

Good day, dad

Really bad idea to bust up scripture Jump from 6:40 to 45... Lets see the context.

Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (so the folks He was talking to never came to Him)
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (so unlike the folks above who did NOT come to Him, those that choose Jesus were drawn to Him of the Father)
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

So there is the context. All men..everyone..and all those folks who do choose Jesus will be taught of the Father..etc. Nothing whatsoever in there that suggests we have no real choice.

No one can... Inability!

Since everyone can and all men can, the Father makes them able if they accept Jesus!

The giving of the Father is the effective cause of our coming..

No, the giving of the Father is the effective cause of our choice to come to Jesus!

pay attention to verb order and dependent clauses. All the father Gives... comes.

From the rest of the chapter, and bible we know that is everyone who asks.

The ones not given do not came because they are unable to do so.

They are not able to go to heaven and come to Jesus because their hard hearts rejected Him and He only wants those who choose to love Him. Somewhat like a man and a woman, where the man does not force himself on the woman but must have her desire and approval. That is how God is, a Gentleman who gives us the total choice and who will not violate our free will choice.

The external action of the Father (drawing) like water from the well to overcome their complete inability is the only way they can come.

That is available to all men. He sent Jesus to draw all men unto Himself, but not all men will choose life.

So you are saying that Jesus was born....? And that John 1
"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Not sure of your point, but of course He was born.

Is talking about the birth of Jesus.. Really??

No. Those who believe on Him.

God is the cause of our walking in his statues... He gifts us with Faith, and Repentance and is extremely effective in his giving and drawing us to his Son for the explicit purpose of raising us up on the last day.

He only does all that if we ask!

His work is that we believe and he never fails...

After we freely choose Jesus He works in us and our faith grows.

God's Great Grace and freedom to redeem for Himself His very own children in accordance with His own good pleasure.

It is so great it is for all men who ask. He did not die just for some people He pre picked!

Eze - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Yes He will, if we choose His Way! (Jesus)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Did he say that belief is a work?

No, but I’m asking what is the relevance of that posting to our discussion then.

What was the point?

 

[Hammster]

No, but I’m asking what is the relevance of that posting to our discussion then.

What was the point?

Since you disagree that He said it’s a work, then the relevance will probably be lost on you.

 

[dad]

It’s not a lie. It is part of TULIP.

If God must intervene, than people’s only hope is to wait on God’s intervention.

So those going to hell, what, simply never get this special intervention? Bad luck I guess.

 

[Hammster]

So those going to hell, what, simply never get this special intervention? Bad luck I guess.

Do they deserve intervention?

 

[dad]

All you did, basically, is say that scripture gets it wrong. I gave you three passages that have regeneration coming before faith, and you basically added in “after you chose” to each of them. That’s called eisegesis.

The verses did not say what you thought. Nothing in the verses precluded our free choice.

 

[dad]

Do they deserve intervention?

Do I deserve it, or you? We are not saved because we deserve it. Jesus did not doe for all men because they deserved it.

 

[Hammster]

The verses did not say what you thought. Nothing in the verses precluded our free choice.

I never said they did. I said that they show that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Hammster]

Do I deserve it, or you? We are not saved because we deserve it. Jesus did not doe for all men because they deserved it.

If they don’t deserve it, what’s the problem?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do they deserve intervention?

Nobody gets intervention.

The falseness of the theology is the claim of pre-salvation intervention.

 

[dad]

I never said they did. I said that they show that regeneration precedes faith.

Regeneration happens after we get saved. You can't regenerate what is dead or never been generated. We can't have the Holy Spirit renewed unless we first received it.

 

[dad]

Nobody gets intervention.

The falseness of the theology is the claim of pre-salvation intervention.

Nail, meet hammer.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If they don’t deserve it, what’s the problem?

Big problem. Because it is a twisted perversion of God’s message and perverts His Holiness.

 

[Hammster]

Nobody gets intervention.

The falseness of the theology is the claim of pre-salvation intervention.

Do you ever pray for anyone to be saved? If so, why?

Yes.

That God will melt their heart to the truth of the gospel so when they hear they will believe and come to Christ.

You?

You aren’t consistent.

 

[dad]

If they don’t deserve it, what’s the problem?

No one deserves what Jesus gave. So why pick out a select group of humans to bestow something they did not deserve onto?

 

[Hammster]

Regeneration happens after we get saved. You can't regenerate what is dead or never been generated. We can't have the Holy Spirit renewed unless we first received it.

Now you are arguing directly against scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Big problem. Because it is a twisted perversion of God’s message and perverts His Holiness.

Wait. I thought nobody deserves salvation. So how can it be a twisted perversion?

 

[Hammster]

No one deserves what Jesus gave. So why pick out a select group of humans to bestow something they did not deserve onto?

Because He’s chosen to.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Since you disagree that He said it’s a work, then the relevance will probably be lost on you.

Maybe you just can’t explain it well.