Did God predestine the Fall?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think what he was really saying is that we can't choose till we are born again.

That doesn't really matter though.

Whenever the ALMIGHTY CREATOR SOVEREIGN GIVER OF LIFE
tells you (ANYONE)
to CHOOSE WHO you (ANYONE) are going to serve, God OR demons,
you (ANYONE) had better choose YAHWEH ! (or else it won't be good for you (ANYONE) , will it ?

 

[dad]

I don’t believe I said that He did.

So how would He intervene in us getting saved or not if He did not violate choice?

 

[dad]

That doesn't really matter though.

Whenever the ALMIGHTY CREATOR SOVEREIGN GIVER OF LIFE
tells you (ANYONE)
to CHOOSE WHO you (ANYONE) are going to serve, God OR demons,
you (ANYONE) had better choose YAHWEH ! (or else it won't be good for you (ANYONE) , will it ?

Adam's choice was bad. He had the choice. People choose hell, but at least they had a choice.

So it matters very much if we had the choice to accept salvation or not. It would matter if we never really had the choice till after we made the choice, or whatever you are hinting at.

 

[Hammster]

So how would He intervene in us getting saved or not if He did not violate choice?

It’s called regeneration.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It’s called regeneration.

What Bible verses layout this regeneration and that it happens before faith.

 

[Hammster]

What Bible verses layout this regeneration and that it happens before faith.

Every time it’s mentioned or referenced or inferred.

 

[dad]

It’s called regeneration.

First we choose, then we can get generated and regenerated. All men can choose, it was not foreordained what we choose. No special wave of the wand needed to let us be able to chose, and this choice is not just for some chosen few. Hope we agree on all this.

 

[Hammster]

First we choose, then we can get generated and regenerated. All men can choose, it was not foreordained what we choose. No special wave of the wand needed to let us be able to chose, and this choice is not just for some chosen few. Hope we agree on all this.

No, I don’t agree with your fantasy. I’ll stick with scripture.

 

[dad]

No, I don’t agree with your fantasy. I’ll stick with scripture.

God given choice for man is no fantasy. It is one thing to quote Scripture about being unable to please God before we are saved, it is quite another thing to say that man's ability to choose has somehow never been part of God's plan. You do not have Scripture on your side in even a small way.

 

[dad]

Every time it’s mentioned or referenced or inferred.

In other words...none at all.

 

[Hammster]

God given choice for man is no fantasy. It is one thing to quote Scripture about being unable to please God before we are saved, it is quite another thing to say that man's ability to choose has somehow never been part of God's plan. You do not have Scripture on your side in even a small way.

You keep acting as if I’ve said man doesn’t have a choice. That’s a seriously disingenuous representation of my view, and I really wish you’d stop. It comes across as petty.

 

[Hammster]

In other words...none at all.

“Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3-8, 10-13, 15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Born again...belief

“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Regeneration...justification (which comes by faith)

“in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:2-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Made alive...faith

 

[Hammster]

Now, since some say faith precedes regeneration, I’m sure there will be passages that they can give for evidence.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Every time it’s mentioned or referenced or inferred.

You’ve cast a wide net saying inferred.

I’m sure that there are two or three main verses. Just share a few so I can see what your basing this off of.

 

[BBAS 64]

From John 6 I notice this

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then right after the verse you speak about we see this

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

So who can come and be saved? Every man who hears and learns we can accept the free gift of Jesus!

Every single man woman and child on earth can come to Him, believe on Him and have everlasting life.



Jesus was talking to people who rejected Him.

John 6: 6 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


Therefore those that are (given to Jesus by the father) = (those who come to Him)!!!

wow

Good day, dad

Really bad idea to bust up scripture Jump from 6:40 to 45... Lets see the context.

Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

We are not incapable of coming to Jesus. When and if we do we are those given to Jesus by the Father. It is our choice that determines whether we are of the chosen of God! It is our choice that we come to Jesus or not. That means heaven and hell are there for our choosing. Not pre arranged for people for reasons that have nothing to do with them.
False. God is the cause of the rebirth ONLY of those that choose Jesus! That results in being born again.

No one can... Inability!

The giving of the Father is the effective cause of our coming.. pay attention to verb order and dependent clauses. All the father Gives... comes. The ones not given do not came because they are unable to do so. The external action of the Father (drawing) like water from the well to overcome their complete inability is the only way they can come.

Jesus was born by the will of God, and all who believe by choice on Him also become born again by the will of God. Yes believers are born again of the will of God, and that is only because they choose to be.
That is impossible if He gave man the choice, and we see He did from cover to cover in the bible. WE are also required! Our choice to come to Jesus is needed.

So you are saying that Jesus was born....? And that John 1
"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Is talking about the birth of Jesus.. Really??

God is the cause of our walking in his statues... He gifts us with Faith, and Repentance and is extremely effective in his giving and drawing us to his Son for the explicit purpose of raising us up on the last day. His work is that we believe and he never fails... God's Great Grace and freedom to redeem for Himself His very own children in accordance with His own good pleasure.

Eze - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

That is the God of the Scripture.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

You’ve cast a wide net saying inferred.

I’m sure that there are two or three main verses. Just share a few so I can see what your basing this off of.

Did God predestine the Fall?

And sorry, they aren’t just verses.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So it matters very much if we had the choice to accept salvation or not.

I’m glad you said this because while we are getting the gospel out so all will hear and come to faith, Calvinism teaches that people should just hang out and wait for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the lost.

Many of us know 1000’s of people unsaved that Calvinist theology offers no hope to.

God is a God of hope. Scripture even defines faith as a hope.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism teaches that people should just hang out and wait for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the lost.

Why the lie?

 

[Hammster]

Does Calvinism Kill Missions?

 

[BBAS 64]

I’m glad you said this because while we are getting the gospel out so all will hear and come to faith, Calvinism teaches that people should just hang out and wait for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the lost.

Many of us know 1000’s of people unsaved that Calvinist theology offers no hope to.

God is a God of hope. Scripture even defines faith as a hope.

Good day,

Something tells me we have a mix-up between Hyper vs the doctrines of Grace.

It is the Gospel that is the hope of fallen men, as a Calvinist I understand that is the only power of God unto salvation. I think if you read Calvin on the purpose of His own Missionary school that sent preachers into his home land he understood that. Historically Calvinist have been the at the forefront of Gospel out reach for 100's of years..

Edwards, Carey, Spurgeon all Preachers of Gospel and used mightily of God with the instrument of the Gospel.. It really saves people just as God intended it to.

In Him,

Bill