Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

If God is doing it, it is intervening.

If it is irresistible, than mankind is not able to resist.

Come on now.

These are not hard concepts

I’m confused by this response. Are you suggesting that God does not intervene?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I’m confused by this response. Are you suggesting that God does not intervene?

Yes I am.

God does the saving but does not intervene in our coming to faith through hearing.

In essence.

We hear the gospel or Good News.

We Choose to believe that God is who He says HE IS and we come to Christ.

Christ then justifies us, gives us the Holy Spirit as the seal of the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit permenantly indwells the New believer. A new creation in Christ is created. Sanctification begins.

 

[Hammster]

Yes I am.

God does the saving but does not intervene in our coming to faith through hearing.

In essence.

We hear the gospel or Good News.

We Choose to believe that God is who He says HE IS and we come to Christ.

Christ then justifies us, gives us the Holy Spirit as the seal of the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit permenantly indwells the New believer. A new creation in Christ is created. Sanctification begins.

Do you ever pray for anyone to be saved? If so, why?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you ever pray for anyone to be saved? If so, why?

Yes.

That God will melt their heart to the truth of the gospel so when they hear they will believe and come to Christ.

You?

 

[Hammster]

Yes.

That God will melt their heart to the truth of the gospel so when they hear they will believe and come to Christ.

You?

Isn’t that God intervening?

 

[dad]

Yes. They are not predestined to hell.

Not sure how this fits in with what some people have suggested here, that only a certain number of people have been gifted with a new nature before being saved, and that there is no real free choice if we have the old nature?

 

[Hammster]

Not sure how this fits in with what some people have suggested here, that only a certain number of people have been gifted with a new nature before being saved, and that there is no real free choice if we have the old nature?

There’s always a free choice. If you went back and reread the thread, every Reformed believer here has said the same thing. We have not argued against free will.

The question boils down to this. Can a heart of stone love God? If so, why is there a need to be born again? If not, how can anyone love God?

 

[Not David]

Jeez, 36 pages! I don't know if I should feel pleased or not.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Isn’t that God intervening?

For God to reveal truth to someone and THEM make the choice is that they will hear the gospel and when they hear understand the free gift offered.

Who takes advantage of anything good if they don’t understand the advantage and why they need or should desire the gift.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jeez, 36 pages! I don't know if I should feel pleased or not.

What kind of OP abandons their thread? Lol.

Just teasing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The question boils down to this. Can a heart of stone love God? If so, why is there a need to be born again? If not, how can anyone love God?

Why does God choose some hearts of stone and does not choose other hearts of stone?

Like on a REALLY important issue like spending eternity in heaven or hell?

 

[Hammster]

For God to reveal truth to someone and THEM make the choice is that they will hear the gospel and when they hear understand the free gift offered.

Who takes advantage of anything good if they don’t understand the advantage and why they need or should desire the gift.[/QUOTE

You keep posting as if the Reformed position doesn’t include a free choice. Why is that??

 

[Hammster]

Why does God choose some hearts of stone and does not choose other hearts of stone?

Like on a REALLY important issue like spending eternity in heaven or hell?

I still don’t think that you realize that God would be completely just if He never saved anyone. Once you understand that, your question will be answered.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I still don’t think that you realize that God would be completely just if He never saved anyone. Once you understand that, your question will be answered.

I realize that we all do. But let’s get one thing straight. Christ died for all mankind so now your theology has to deal with the have and have nots.

It needs to be Biblical don’t forget.

My question is not answered though. Unless you don’t have an answer to your own theology.

So it seems I understand none of us deserve heaven. Yet Christ said He wished ALL would be saved.

So now you have God (Jesus Christ- documented in scripture) saying ALL and Calvinist saying SOME.

You must see the issue here with that contradiction

 

[Hammster]

I realize that we all do. But let’s get one thing straight. Christ died for all mankind so now your theology has to deal with the have and have nots.

It needs to be Biblical don’t forget.

My question is not answered though. Unless you don’t have an answer to your own theology.

So it seems I understand none of us deserve heaven. Yet Christ said He wished ALL would be saved.

So now you have God (Jesus Christ- documented in scripture) saying ALL and Calvinist saying SOME.

You must see the issue here with that contradiction

Scripture doesn’t say that Christ wants all saved. If He did,’all would be saved since changing a heart is simple for Him. Scripture does say that He came to seek and save that which was lost (not for everyone). And He came for the lost sheep of Israel (not for all of Israel).

So He’s either incompetent, or He succeeded.

 

[dad]

There’s always a free choice. If you went back and reread the thread, every Reformed believer here has said the same thing. We have not argued against free will.

The question boils down to this. Can a heart of stone love God? If so, why is there a need to be born again? If not, how can anyone love God?

The heart of stone has to come to Jesus and ask for life.

It's funny you sometimes say there is choice and seemingly mixed messages most of the time also.

What should I do with these things I have learned here from some who believe in pre destination? Things somewhat like the following, to paraphrase them according to memory.

- 'man is fallen in nature so unless God gave them some ability to choose they can't chose to be saved of their own will

- 'basically God knew and had it predestined before anyone lived what they would 'choose'

- 'Jesus had to die to pay the price of sin, but this was not for all men, only those He chose'

How about the guy that said we basically had no real free will, it was in bondage or something like that?

There is no question we need to be born again because we are born into sin. The question in this thread is whether Adam (and therefore all men) really were put here to choose, or whether it was all arranged.


You have said this here in post 621

" God has decided to save some, so He gave some new natures (born again) and with that new hearts, they freely chose to repent and believe."


You said this in post 715

"Scripture doesn’t say that Christ wants all saved.."

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It is clear then, that God will and does not 'change our hearts' FOR us, but only after WE CHOOSE to ask Him to!

wow

 

[Hammster]

The heart of stone has to come to Jesus and ask for life.

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:6-8

So which one describes those with hearts of stone, those whose minds are set on the flesh or those whose minds are set on the Spirit?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture doesn’t say that Christ wants all saved. If He did,’all would be saved since changing a heart is simple for Him. Scripture does say that He came to seek and save that which was lost (not for everyone). And He came for the lost sheep of Israel (not for all of Israel).

So He’s either incompetent, or He succeeded.

Maybe brush up on scripture a bit. I have listed scripture that is directly saying the Opposite of what you have said in your first sentence #TheMoreScriptireYouKnow

I have listed for you these verses:

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2:2

“The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”” John 1:29

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh” John 6:51

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” John 12:32

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” 1 Timothy 2:5–6

“But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone” Hebrews 2:9

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” 2 Peter 2:1

I find the 2 Peter 2:1 verse particularly good. Even those who deny Him, the Master (ie Christ) BOUGHT THEM.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe brush up on scripture a bit. I have listed scripture that is directly saying the Opposite of what you have said in your first sentence #TheMoreScriptireYouKnow

I have listed for you these verses:

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2:2

“The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”” John 1:29

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh” John 6:51

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” John 12:32

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” 1 Timothy 2:5–6

“But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone” Hebrews 2:9

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” 2 Peter 2:1

I find the 2 Peter 2:1 verse particularly good. Even those who deny Him, the Master (ie Christ) BOUGHT THEM.

So you all sorts of scripture without context, and leave it to the Reformed folk to sort it out.

#typicalSynergists

Which one do you want to start with?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The question boils down to this. Can a heart of stone love God? If so, why is there a need to be born again? If not, how can anyone love God?

The Bible says we can after hearing the gospel and coming to Christ in faith.

We love God because He loved us first.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

#TheMoreScriptureYouKnow