Lazarus Short

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Umm...your speaking nonsense I see only black & white here. No green or red text or filters just God’s word in plain black & white. Instead of spewing a bunch of irrelevant garbage why don’t you actually make a valid point by explaining exactly how the verse results in someone who has sinned against the Holy Spirit being forgiven?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

It doesn’t get any more plainly or clearly written than this.

Nonsense? Try "you're" next time.

OK, you're not a red/green person, but a black/white person. I get that. I will try not to use my imagination from now on.

Yes, I understand Luke 12:10, but did you ever consider that Hell theology may be just that - blasphemy against the Holy Spirits (there are Seven of Them). You see, to be in Hell to suffer ECT, you must be conscious, and that means you are still a soul (body + Spirit = soul). So there you are in Hell, according to Damnationism, with the Spirit in you. It must be so, or you cannot be a conscious soul. If you think THAT is nonsense, please re-read how God made Adam. Do you see the problem inherent in this situation? No, I am not using my imagination, just looking at the logical consequences of the Hell theory, and it's not pretty.
 
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Der Alte

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<Jas>In addition, the NIV says for Revelation 20:10,
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
BSB says,
" into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. "
GNT says,
"where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown;
"<end>
This is known as cherry picking versions. Searching for a version or versions which appear to support one's assumptions/presuppositions. What exactly is your point? .....How does this address my post, if at all? I don't see that these versions show that all three; false prophet, devil and the beast will not be tormented day and night for ever an ever. There is no verb for "thrown" associated with the beast or the false prophet in vs. 10.
....I don't rely on "versions." I have studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level and if a word is in question I look up the definition, BDAG for Greek and BDB for Hebrew, both of which I happen to have in hard copy and electronic. BDB is available for DL at Internet Archives and BDAG is available for viewing at A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker
 
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Lazarus Short

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I think you got the wrong guy lol. But yeah, Jesus came at a very precise point in time and for a very specific reason. That reason was not to tell everyone to do what you want whenever you want and youre good.

Why do you hint that I believe Jesus had such a message? Jesus warned that sin has consequences, and anyone reading the Bible can see that plain as day. You're good in the end, but in the meantime there will be jusdment, punishment and unpleasantness.
 
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"Zilch" - just as we Universalists see the evidence for the existence of Hell. We seem to have no basis for mutual understanding.
We do not. But I was stating in the beginning that our focus should not be on this topic, but rather put our eyes on Christ and learning to love one another while also letting our selfness die. It would be great if your theory is correct but I have yet to see any biblical basis for it from anyone, ever. Furthermore, I simply find it dangerous to spread. Christ was the balance of grace and truth. Grace alone is nothing more than a free pass for licentiousness. I don’t think this represents the heart of God at all. The universalist claim that you can repent after death is borderline ludicrous and I don’t believe anyone holds the authority to make such claims. I am not advocating for the existence of hell but rather that our attention not be on matters outside of our control. What if hell is real and people reall go there forever. But God Tom told me I could repent after death. Sorry Bill, you had 85 years and I have no idea who you are.
 
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Der Alte

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<Jas>I am addressing the verse you brought up. The second death. Revelation 21:8. Again, think about this logically for a moment. Why do you think the Lake of Fire is called the second death in Revelation 21:8? The logical conclusion is because it relates to the first death (i.e. the perishing or death of our physical flesh and blood body). The Lake of Fire is called the second death because it is related to the first death. Otherwise the second death would not be a second death if it does not cause death like the first death does. That would be like having a sequel to a movie and the sequel is not related in any way to the first movie. Speaking of death: As I said before, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Still talking about "death" here from Revelation 21:8. So, if the last enemy to be destroyed is death and the lake of Fire is the second death, then that means that the purpose of the Lake of Fire will come to an end at some point because it is called the second death. Let that sink in for a moment.<end>
If you will not read my post and try to understand what I have been saying, please do me a favor and read Rev 21:4 and Rev 21:8 and see if you can understand how these 2 verses contradict what you say in your post I quoted here?
Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
...
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
.....Rev 21:3-8 is one continuous narrative. No part of it can be yanked out of context and made to refer to an earlier or later period. Now since you have failed to see it the last 2 times I posted and emphasized these verses. Please note in vs. 4 no more death, sorrow, crying or pain but four vss. later eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is "the second death."


 
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FineLinen

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It would be great if your theory is correct but I have yet to see any biblical basis for it from anyone, ever. .

Dear Faith: Perhaps a new pair of reading glasses would be in order? Better by far: there is One who still specializes in healing blind eyes and deaf ears.

From Him the ta panta comes, through Him the ta panta exists, & in Him the ta panta ends...
 
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Dear Faith: Perhaps a new pair of reading glasses would be in order? Better by far: there is One who still specializes in healing blind eyes and deaf ears.

From Him the ta panta comes, through Him the ta panta exists, & in Him the ta panta ends...
Eisegesis is not a fruit of the spirit
 
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FineLinen

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Eisegesis is not a fruit of the spirit
Dear Faith: nor is being blind deaf and dead.

A question for you: does the angelic host who announced the birth of the Saviour of reconciliation announce correctly?

"Behold I bring you glad tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people..."

Is that the radical all/pas?

OR

Should the announcement be good news to very few people?
 
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What is ECT? Not familiar with the abbreviation
ECT=eternal conscious torment.
<Jas>...But what about their being tormented for ever and ever?
The words forever or ever = aeon (or age).
So Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson<end>
See my own study of the words aion and aionios at the bottom.
Jason said:
<Jas>In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.
Revelation 10:10 Darby

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."
Note: the words in blue in brackets above, are my commentary to the text.
For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.
So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."
...<end>
Anyone who does not know Greek should refrain from trying to reinterpret scripture to fit their assumptions/presuppositions
......The Greek word for "because" is ὅτι/oti and the Greek word for purpose is πρόθεσις/prosthesis. Neither word occurs in Rev 21:10. If John had wanted to say "because of the ages and ages" or "for the purpose of the ages and ages," those are the words he would have used. What John wrote was "ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/day and night [eis] unto the age of ages."

.....My personal study of the Greek words aion/aionios.
In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …

1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
 
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ECT=eternal conscious torment.
<Jas>...But what about their being tormented for ever and ever?
The words forever or ever = aeon (or age).
So Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson<end>
See my own study of the words aion and aionios at the bottom.
<Jas>In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.
Revelation 10:10 Darby

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."
Note: the words in blue in brackets above, are my commentary to the text.
For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.
So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."
...<end>
Anyone who does not know Greek should refrain from trying to reinterpret scripture to fit their assumptions/presuppositions
......The Greek word for "because" is ὅτι/oti and the Greek word for purpose is πρόθεσις/prosthesis. Neither word occurs in Rev 21:10. If John had wanted to say "because of the ages and ages" or "for the purpose of the ages and ages," those are the words he would have used. What John wrote was "ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/day and night [eis] unto the age of ages."

.....My personal study of the Greek words aion/aionios.
In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …

1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

So I am just going to accept what you say in the Greek? No thanks. I can read my English Bible just fine (that was translated from the Greek). I also made some great points that you are not really addressing, either. You are just posting a bunch of Greek. I don't know Biblical Greek, and I am pretty sure you don't, either. For you did not grow up in Bible times. Moving on from this conversation.

May God bless you.
 
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Faith Unites

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Jesus Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth. Where do you think He went then?
Some angels He has cast down to hell.
See 2 Peter 2:4.
Where do you think Jesus Christ went to lead captivity captive?
Who do you think is going to be learning the song in Rev. 5 before the seals gets opened?
Proverbs 14:32 tells that the wicked is driven away in his wickedness. But then also mentions- but the righteous hath hope in his death.
Paul told how the wicked -have no hope.
He told the church to not sorrow -as others that have no hope.

He shall go to the generation of his fathers-never see light.
Odd thing to say about the wicked that die if there is no life after
death.
See Psalms 49:19
I def agree that hell exists and that it is quite possibly eternal. I was just saying that it should not be the focus. But this is a debate forum so really that was a silly statement on my part. The universalists persistence that the church is infatuated with talks of hell is quite obnoxious though. I’ve maybe seen a handful of services in my life that focus on it. Was just making a point that we should lean into the things that help our walk today rather than bicker over things outside of our control.
 
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Jesus Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth. Where do you think He went then?
Some angels He has cast down to hell.
See 2 Peter 2:4.
Where do you think Jesus Christ went to lead captivity captive?
Who do you think is going to be learning the song in Rev. 5 before the seals gets opened?
Proverbs 14:32 tells that the wicked is driven away in his wickedness. But then also mentions- but the righteous hath hope in his death.
Paul told how the wicked -have no hope.
He told the church to not sorrow -as others that have no hope.

He shall go to the generation of his fathers-never see light.
Odd thing to say about the wicked that die if there is no life after
death.
See Psalms 49:19
 
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FineLinen

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"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

"Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.....for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit."
 
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"Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.....for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

This is talking about Jesus preaching (through the Holy Spirit) to the slaves of sin during the days of Noah. Not the dead
 
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FineLinen

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This is talking about Jesus preaching (through the Holy Spirit) to the slaves of sin during the days of Noah. Not the dead

Dear Faith: My dear girl you must get your order in for new reading glasses! What part of dead is evading you?

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-
 
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The Hell Verses Project

TheHellVerses | Verse #9 - John 3:16

A few thoughts on “decisional regeneration” or the notion that John 3:16 is an ultimatum.
  1. If we are saved, redeemed, justified, etc. by making a decision, that makes our salvation a partnership. Jesus did His part, now I do must do my portion.

  2. Some maintain that we must decide to accept Christ. His mercy and grace is a gift and it is essential that it be “accepted.” If this is true, then does that mean that the gift you left on the table at the last wedding you attended, was not the bride and grooms gift until they acknowledged or "accepted" it?

  3. If I were mayor of a city, proclaiming that every citizen of that city would receive a tax reduction. Would it be appropriate to apply the reduced tax only to those who "asked" for the reduction?

  4. If a large coast guard rescue boat came back from the site of a sinking ship with twenty three people while their were still seventy five people still in the freezing ocean - would that be considered a successful rescue mission? After all, the seventy five did not ask to be rescued?
 
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