FineLinen

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Oh, good, because the Bible is clear that there is a hell of punishment.

Dear Vin: It is wonderful to grasp that the Bible is clear. With that in mind, can you tell us what the word for "damnation" is and why that identical word is used for the House of God?

 
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Faith Unites

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Dear Faith: My dear girl you must get your order in for new reading glasses! What part of dead is evading you?

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-
Well first off, I'm a man. Second off, I was responding to your 1 Peter 3:18-20 quote. Now regarding your butchering of 1 Peter 4:4-6; "They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit". When looked at as a whole it is obvious that 1 Peter 4:4-5 is telling his listeners to have hope because even those that are persecuting them will face judgement one day. 1 Peter 4:6 is referring to the followers who are now dead in the flesh. By your logic 4:6 would essentially be invalidating 4:4-4:5. Eisegesis allows for many interpretations.
 
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FineLinen

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Well first off, I'm a man. Second off, I was responding to your 1 Peter 3:18-20 quote. Now regarding your butchering of 1 Peter 4:4-6; .

My dear Faith: A man you are, and I stand corrected, please find it in your heart to forgive me.

You still need an upgrade in your glasses however. This is what we will do (provided you are willing & able).

"My "butchering" should be challenged. With that in mind can you define "dead" in the butchered text of St Peter? Perhaps it is the word "disobedient" in St. Peters discourse you disagree?
 
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FineLinen

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The risen Christ preaches to the dead

"Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water..... for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Bible Verses by Comparison, Read Verses Using All Translations Side by Side

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Questions=

1. What does "disobedient" mean?

2. To whom was Jesus Christ preaching?

3. Who are the "dead" to whom Jesus was preaching?

4. What is the outcome?
 
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Faith Unites

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The risen Christ preaches to the dead

"Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water..... for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Bible Verses by Comparison, Read Verses Using All Translations Side by Side

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Questions=

1. What does "disobedient" mean?

2. To whom was Jesus Christ preaching?

3. Who are the "dead" to whom Jesus was preaching?

4. What is the outcome?


You're just smashing scriptures together in an attempt to connect things that are not connected.
The horse is dead and so is this conversation
 
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FineLinen

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You're just smashing scriptures together in an attempt to connect things that are not connected.
The horse is dead and so is this conversation

Dear sir Faith: I regret you are ending our conversation. You I am sure realize the entire discourse of St. Peter has no verses, no chapters. It is one continuous letter making it impossible to "smash" anything together!
 
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FineLinen

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Everlasting punishment

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal."—Matt. 25:46.

Perhaps no passage of Scripture between the lids of the Bible is brought forward more frequently and confidently to support the doctrine of endless punishment, than the text we now propose to examine and explain. Having given the subject a most careful and critical examination, we are fully persuaded, that multitudes, through a false religious education, are led to believe that the text teaches the doctrine of endless punishment. . This doctrine is assumed to be true, and then the passage before us is adduced to prove it! Thousands are religiously educated to believe that everlasting means endless—their early instruction and all their sectarian prejudices are in favor of such a definition of the word, and hence, when they read of "everlasting punishment," they understand the expression to mean "endless punishment." Such are therefore surprised to learn that aionios, here translated everlasting, does not necessarily have that signification, that it is not the same word in the original which is rendered endless; that it is often used in the Scriptures in a limited sense, and that its proper signification is age-lasting.

Before coming to a direct exposition of the text before us your attention to two or three important considerations which have a legitimate bearing upon our subject.

First, The different classes of individuals referred to in the text, are acquitted and condemned on account of their works, and therefore the subject cannot refer to the immortal world; for heaven is not to be attained by good works! Eternal life is the pure, free and un-purchased gift of God, and is not of works of righteousness that we have done, lest any man should boast!

The second important consideration to which we invite the reader's attention, is, that the original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.

Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.

Punishment= kolasis=

Designed by Abba for wise & benevolent purpose to benefit & improve those chastened.
 
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aiki

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A few thoughts on “decisional regeneration” or the notion that John 3:16 is an ultimatum.
  1. If we are saved, redeemed, justified, etc. by making a decision, that makes our salvation a partnership. Jesus did His part, now I do must do my portion.

How is it a partnership for a man who recognizes his inability to rescue himself to turn for rescue to one who has the power to rescue him? Is the man up to his neck in quicksand who is offered rescue from a passerby and agrees, "partnering" with the passerby in his rescue by agreeing? I don't see how.

Some maintain that we must decide to accept Christ. His mercy and grace is a gift and it is essential that it be “accepted.” If this is true, then does that mean that the gift you left on the table at the last wedding you attended, was not the bride and grooms gift until they acknowledged or "accepted" it?

Of course it was their gift if they received it. But if they tossed the gift in the nearest garbage can the moment you left would it still be their gift? It would certainly not be their possession. In the same way, if a person refuses God's gift of salvation, they do not possess it.

If I were mayor of a city, proclaiming that every citizen of that city would receive a tax reduction. Would it be appropriate to apply the reduced tax only to those who "asked" for the reduction?

But God does not proclaim a "tax reduction" for everyone. He proclaims more of a "tax rebate" that only those who avail themselves of it will enjoy.

If a large coast guard rescue boat came back from the site of a sinking ship with twenty three people while their were still seventy five people still in the freezing ocean - would that be considered a successful rescue mission? After all, the seventy five did not ask to be rescued?

If the entire boatload of people did not believe that they needed rescuing, and were actually enjoying the situation they were in, and flatly refused the aid of the Coast Guard, it would be a success if even one person was persuaded to change their mind and agree to be rescued. That twenty-five people in such a situation were convinced of the need of rescue is a great success, it seems to me.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Psalm chapter 49 is interesting. I'd like to prove that it shows the wicked go to hell, then outer darkness.
Verse 19
"He shall go to the generation of his fathers;..."

That part I'd say is the first death time, and the destination is where
his wicked dead relatives already are.

Jacob was gathered to his fathers while he was still in bed.
I see this as when the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham type of
a scene.

That verse in Psalm 49 continues...
"....generation of his fathers; they shall never see light."
It went from singular to plural, as if everybody moves to a new
location where they will never see light.
as in =the lake of fire /outer darkness?

verse 17
For when he dieth...his glory shall not descend after him."
/so he descended to his fathers -in hell

Then, there is Psalm 136:

Psalm 136

Here I read (26 times!) this: “…his mercy endureth for ever.” Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it badly, even in ignorance, He relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, “Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are.” (Yes, I did read her book.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus’ early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy.

You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God’s mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God’s mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to eternal torture, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is more merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let me say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), but eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and the Hell theory cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.
 
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FineLinen

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Psalm chapter 49 is interesting. I'd like to prove that it shows the wicked go to hell, then outer darkness.
Verse 19
"He shall go to the generation of his fathers;..."

That part I'd say is the first death time, and the destination is where
his wicked dead relatives already are.

Jacob was gathered to his fathers while he was still in bed.
I see this as when the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham type of
a scene.

That verse in Psalm 49 continues...
"....generation of his fathers; they shall never see light."
It went from singular to plural, as if everybody moves to a new
location where they will never see light.
as in =the lake of fire /outer darkness?

verse 17
For when he dieth...his glory shall not descend after him."
/so he descended to his fathers -in hell
 
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FineLinen

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God's mercy will be only upon those that love Him.

Dear Vin:

"But when he saw the crowds, he was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and scattered, like sheep without a shepherd."

This is the One who gathers up broken bread & broken fish that "nothing be lost"!

Jesus Christ the Lord of Reconciliation loses NOTHING. If He has not found you yet, be patient. He will!
 
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Faith Unites

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Then, there is Psalm 136:

Psalm 136

Here I read (26 times!) this: “…his mercy endureth for ever.” Compare this God of mercy to the Hell theory god, who grants us our precious Free Will, and then when we exercise it badly, even in ignorance, He relegates us to Hell with no chance of reprieve. Compare the real Jesus, Who prayed to His Father for the sinners who were killing Him, to the Jesus of Mary K. Baxter who tells the damned in so many words, “Too bad, you screwed up, and here you are.” (Yes, I did read her book.) For that matter, take a look at the behavior of Jesus’ early followers, in the days when universal reconciliation (or whatever term they used at the time) was orthodoxy, versus the violence, torture, and bloodshed which later set in after the Hell theory became dominant. I know that during this period, entire nations disappeared from history, and others nearly did, for what the Church considered heresy.

You see, gentle reader, either the Hell theory is correct, or God’s mercy endures forever – both cannot be true at the same time. If God’s mercy does endure forever, and I believe it does, then people cannot be sent to eternal torture, whatever excuses some may make for it – burning the wicked to ashes is more merciful, but as we shall see, God has more mercy in store for us than that. Let me say it again, for it bears repeating: universal reconciliation is mercy, annihilation is mercy (sort of), but eternal torture cannot be mercy. Psalm 136 and the Hell theory cannot both be true, and Psalm 136 is true.
Do you have a verse on mercy enduring forever? Mercy is generally something you give to people when there is a show of repentance. The wrench in this whole thing is that uni assumes there is an ability to repent after death. This topic is insanely debatable, so I take the stance that it is a moral injustice to act as if it repentance post death is a guarantee. It is essentially a licence to do whatever you want whenever you want and it'll all work out. It tosses out the entire need for the process of sanctification and bearing of the cross. Why would Jesus even bother telling the apostles to go and make disciples if this life was virtually pointless? Almost all of his ministry talked about a cleansing of the self. Why bother? Fortunately, this topic is not a pillar of the faith so we can have opposing positions on it, but seriously imo its a dangerous position that uni has taken and only offers a watered down version of Christianity that is most assuredly no true.
 
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FineLinen

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That verse in Psalm 49 continues...
"....generation of his fathers; they shall never see light."
It went from singular to plural, as if everybody moves to a new
location where they will never see light.
as in =the lake of fire /outer darkness?

Dear Vin: As in the Lake of Fire? Can you disclose what differentiates the Lake radiating with theion and the One who is Consuming fire?
 
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FineLinen

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Do you have a verse on mercy enduring forever?

Psalm 136 King James Version (KJV)
1. O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
 
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