One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[Strong in Him]

1 Thessalonians 4:9-12 NIV

I don't deny the Bible says that we should work, rather than sit around idly.
I do voluntary work - I do work with my hands.

I don’t think we should take any job for the sake of working -

Great; so we agree.

I understand where you’re coming from, but I hear some excuses.

Not excuses - facts; I haven't been able to get a job.

We are commanded to work, not only by God but by the Apostles too. It doesn’t look good for us as Christians when we aren’t working.

I DO work; I do voluntary work.
It's hard work. I give my time and do it free of charge.

It’s one thing if we are disabled to the point where we can’t work at all, but there are plenty of jobs out there that a believer can do, even beginner jobs such as a cashier job, or waiting tables.

I said that I'm not taking any old job just for the sake of working - I thought you said you understood.
The Lord has given me certain skills and much experience of different areas of life. When a job comes along that uses those, and I believe he wants me too apply; I will. Until then, I'm doing charity work.

It’s really not that difficult to get a job, unless we make excuses all day long.

You have no idea whether I'm making excuses.

Jesus was a carpenter, Paul was a tent maker, and some of the apostles and disciples were fishermen for a living.

Yes, and I'm involved in chaplaincy and helping those who are desperate and suicidal. Not for a living though; I'm doing it because I want to.

 

[ace of hearts]

Go out and buy yourself a good dictionary like the Oxford dictionary look up opinion and then go back and look at your post that I originally replied to. That was an opinion.... because it sure as heck was not a fact, and that was the point of my response in the first place.

Personal attack is their last hope.

 

[ace of hearts]

I'm not idle; I do voluntary work. Some people tell me that I'm doing too much.



I'm sure they didn't put it like that - nor command that a person take any old job just for the sake of working.



When I did work, I didn't always get regular days off - one week it might be Thursday and Friday, another week, Friday and Saturday. So my day of rest varied. If I got a job in a care home, that would probably be true again.
In the meantime, I have no specific job to rest from.

Oh. He's giving you an invitation to leave. IOW he has no successful counter.

 

[ace of hearts]

Surely there is a job out there for you. God wants us to work but also rest from our labors. He definitely does not want us to be idle - even the Apostles commanded that we use our hands to make a living, to the extent we are able to work. Even Jesus worked.

I have learned that our past circumstances do not matter - with faith + God on our side, we can do anything, including getting a job, especially a job where we are able to rest on the 7th day.

I take comfort in the fact I'm not the only one you're behaving this way with.

 

[ace of hearts]

Go out and buy yourself a good dictionary like the Oxford dictionary look up opinion and then go back and look at your post that I originally replied to. That was an opinion.... because it sure as heck was not a fact, and that was the point of my response in the first place.

There's some very good advice.

 

[ace of hearts]

It is not arrogance to say that the 7th day Sabbath is a commandment from God. It is not Arrogance to state that there is no command from Jesus that says to worship on His resurrection day instead of the 7th. It is merely stating the obvious. You are free to keep whatever day you wish---Why then do you push your non-biblical day of worship on those who wish to do as God dictated and not as man decided?

Why are you pushing your day of worship?

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus taught obedience to God’s commandments.

Not only did he teach obedience, but he lived a life of obedience to God’s commandments as an example for us to follow.

But he didn't teach that Gentiles should keep the Sabbath on a certain day, or at all.
He taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It was made for OUR benefit; God was showing us that ceasing work for one day is beneficial for us. Genesis says nothing about what God did when he rested - always assuming we believe that the Creator of the universe was so tired he had to rest. Did he withdraw from the world completely; did it have to function for a period of time without him at all? Or was that to give us a pattern of work and rest - not being workaholics, and trying to work and make money every day?

How did Jesus instruct Gentiles to keep the Sabbath? He didn't.
The author of Hebrews says that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. He is; when we come to Jesus we rest from our works in the sense that our works will never get us to heaven, or earn us God's love and salvation, so we don't have to strive to impress him.
Jesus said, come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. He also gives us his peace.
In Jesus we find rest, peace and are free from the stress of doing good works to try to please God. That Sabbath command, like every other, has been fulfilled in Jesus.

 

[Strong in Him]

Oh. He's giving you an invitation to leave. IOW he has no successful counter.

No he's not - it is the Lord who is getting me the voluntary work opportunities.

If I needed to work for financial reasons, I might not be too worried about the kind of job I had - money would be the main criteria. But I don't, and it's not.
I've been for a number of paid jobs in the church and in chaplaincy, and was unsuccessful in every application. I have now come to believe that, for the moment, he doesn't want me to do a job for money, a title or worldly position - so that I can't boast about being a senior chaplain/Minister/Deacon/Director/top social worker, or whatever. I just serve him - doing the work that he gives me to do.

 

[Dkh587]

I don't deny the Bible says that we should work, rather than sit around idly.
I do voluntary work - I do work with my hands.



Great; so we agree.



Not excuses - facts; I haven't been able to get a job.



I DO work; I do voluntary work.
It's hard work. I give my time and do it free of charge.



I said that I'm not taking any old job just for the sake of working - I thought you said you understood.
The Lord has given me certain skills and much experience of different areas of life. When a job comes along that uses those, and I believe he wants me too apply; I will. Until then, I'm doing charity work.



You have no idea whether I'm making excuses.



Yes, and I'm involved in chaplaincy and helping those who are desperate and suicidal. Not for a living though; I'm doing it because I want to.

I’ve made the same excuses before, so I know when excuses are being made. You sound entitled.

None of these excuses/reasons or whatever you want to call them change the fact that we are commanded to rest on the 7th day. Your posts are centered around getting out of obeying God, Jesus & the Apostles. No point in us continuing any further.

 

[Dkh587]

But he didn't teach that Gentiles should keep the Sabbath on a certain day, or at all.
He taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It was made for OUR benefit; God was showing us that ceasing work for one day is beneficial for us. Genesis says nothing about what God did when he rested - always assuming we believe that the Creator of the universe was so tired he had to rest. Did he withdraw from the world completely; did it have to function for a period of time without him at all? Or was that to give us a pattern of work and rest - not being workaholics, and trying to work and make money every day?

How did Jesus instruct Gentiles to keep the Sabbath? He didn't.
The author of Hebrews says that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. He is; when we come to Jesus we rest from our works in the sense that our works will never get us to heaven, or earn us God's love and salvation, so we don't have to strive to impress him.
Jesus said, come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. He also gives us his peace.
In Jesus we find rest, peace and are free from the stress of doing good works to try to please God. That Sabbath command, like every other, has been fulfilled in Jesus.

There’s no point in going back and forth on this anymore. You genuinely believe that Jesus taught you to disobey God’s commandments. There’s not much else to say if you and @ace of hearts persist on following and promoting a lawless and disobedient version of Jesus that’s not written about in the Bible

 

[Strong in Him]

There’s no point in going back and forth on this anymore. You genuinely believe that Jesus taught you to disobey God’s commandments.

Of course I don't.

There’s not much else to say if you and @ace of hearts persist on following and promoting a lawless and disobedient version of Jesus that’s not written about in the Bible

The trouble is though, that if we don't understand Scripture correctly, we can make it say all kinds of things - things that the authors never meant.

You seem to think that Jesus commanded Gentiles to obey the Jewish law - he didn't.
The 10 commandments are important, because Jesus affirmed them, and summed them up in two commandments; love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself. But he didn't spell out what it meant to keep each individual one. Not covet my neighbours donkey? No problem - he hasn't got one. Maybe I'll covet his laptop though; that's not covered in the commandments.
Jesus told us to obey HIS words, and taught his disciples to teach what HE had taught them. And he did not say "go and tell Gentiles to keep the law."

 

[Strong in Him]

I’ve made the same excuses before, so I know when excuses are being made.

I don't know why you're so bothered about the fact that I'm not in paid employment. Is it because I asked you some specific questions about how I can spend the Sabbath and you can't answer them?
Shame you have to resort to lies and insults.

None of these excuses/reasons or whatever you want to call them change the fact that we are commanded to rest on the 7th day.

Ok, I'll lounge around ll day Saturday doing nothing - satisfied?

Your posts are centered around getting out of obeying God, Jesus & the Apostles.

No, I'm asking some honest questions, and explaining what I understand Sabbath to mean.

No point in us continuing any further.

Well that saves you the difficulty of answering me, I suppose.

 

[bekkilyn]

Adam wasn't a Jew.

Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον

Literally, '... the sabbath [of the LORD [JEHOVAH], the 7th day, context] was made/created for the man ...'

The only "the [definite article] man" [Hebrew: 'ha adam'] [singular] that was around when things were "made" [thus at Genesis], is "Adam" [and all humanity in him]. This agrees with, Genesis 2:7, which speaks of "the Adam":

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃

Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-häädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy häädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

Genesis 2:7 LXX* (so-called) - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

Jesus was a Jew, and is the second/last Adam:

1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The "sabbath" (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:3, etc was "made" (at Creation, not Mt Sinai) for (the reason or purpose) "the" (definite article, singluar) "man", who is "Adam" and thus all mankind in Him, first or second.

Moses was not a Jew. God was the God of the "Hebrews" (Exodus 5:3).

Moses was Hebrew [Exodus 2:7,11 KJB], so also the midwives [Exodus 1:15 KJB], as well as others [Exodus 1:16,19; Deuteronomy 15:12 KJB].

Abraham was also Hebrew [Genesis 14:13 KJB], as was Joseph [Genesis 39:14 KJB]. The word Hebrew, comes from "Eber" [Genesis 10:21,24,25, 11:14-17; Numbers 24:24; 1 Chronicles 1:18-19,25 KJB], who is of the line of "Shem" [Genesis 10:21 KJB], of "Noah", etc., etc. unto "Adam".

The seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God is for all flesh of mankind:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

As stated, Jesus Christ is the real Israel (and the real David, the real Solomon, the real Melchizedek; the real Joseph, the real Daniel, etc); Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:34 ("house"); Hebrews 3:6 ("house"); John 16:33; Revelation 3:21 (overcomer); Genesis 32:28 ("prince"); Acts 5:31 ("Prince"). Israel means "prince/ruler (overcomer) with God".

Thus Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' "after the flesh" (outside of Christ Jesus), as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

Do I really need to say Israelite or Jew here when you know very well that I am talking about the Israelites and their descendants (Jews)? Abraham wasn't under the Sinai covenant, nor was any other person who came before God gave the covenant to those who were alive there on or around the mountain that day. Last I checked, Adam wasn't camped out with the Israelites at Sinai. Very clear in scripture that their ancestors were not included. Only they and their descendants were under the Sinai covenant.

However, if you believe that you are still under the old covenant, then you would need to be a Jew because there are no Israelites living on earth today and Jews are their descendants. However, as Christ fulfilled ALL of the law, even Jews are no longer bound to the old covenant if they are in Christ.

 

[bekkilyn]

No it is not and I didn't say it was... what is arrogant is to tell everyone else that don’t see it your way that they are wrong and you alone have the truth...

Because in their view, anyone who disagrees with them is of the devil, and so they can plaster up all sorts of out-of-context scripture verses to imply that they are the only true Christians. However, when one's center of faith is on anything other than Christ, that's a huge red flag for me.

 

[bekkilyn]

You keep proving what I stated.

Two things. Not one.

The "covenant" and "it" are the same in "It's very clear who this covenant was made with and it's also very clear that it includes the ten commandments."

You don't need to write "It's very clear who this covenant was made with and it's also very clear that this covenant includes the ten commandments" but if it makes it clearer to you that there is only one covenant referenced, not two, then there you go!

It's a common way to write in English. For example, you can write, "John typed his paper" rather than "John typed John's paper." There is only one person here, John. The "he" does not mean a second person has arrived.

 

[bekkilyn]

I’ve made the same excuses before, so I know when excuses are being made. You sound entitled.

None of these excuses/reasons or whatever you want to call them change the fact that we are commanded to rest on the 7th day. Your posts are centered around getting out of obeying God, Jesus & the Apostles. No point in us continuing any further.

You know, it's ridiculous how you keep judging and criticizing Strong in Him for not working in a manner that you deem to be appropriate and then go around calling other people trolls. So only work that people do for money counts as work? Do you go around criticizing homemakers and mothers looking after small children too? On what day do *they* get to rest?

 

[Dkh587]

You know, it's ridiculous how you keep judging and criticizing Strong in Him for not working in a manner that you deem to be appropriate and then go around calling other people trolls. So only work that people do for money counts as work? Do you go around criticizing homemakers and mothers looking after small children too? On what day do *they* get to rest?

This post is full of emotion and falsehood. Nowhere did I say or do anything you have falsely accused me of doing.

 

[liberty of conscience]

This post is full of emotion and falsehood. Nowhere did I say or do anything you have falsely accused me of doing.

Turn away from them.

2Ti_3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

They have made their decision. It is very clear. Go to others.

 

[mmksparbud]

Not so because Christians are under the New Covenant, which isn't like the previous covenant. Therefore you need to point out what in our New Covenant requires keeping the sabbath.

The commandments are to be kept--

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Luk_1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luk_18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Co_14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col_4:10 Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him
1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All the law hangs on these 2--the 1st 4 are ouy duty to God, the last 6 our duty to man---
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Lord gave the Israelites the 10 commandments at Mt Sinai.
He also gave them many other laws which showed them how to live as his holy, covenant people - including one, I think, that anyone who worked on the Sabbath was to be stoned to death, Numbers 15:32-36.

To those who are very insistent that we keep the Sabbath as outlined in the OT - do we keep all the rest of God's laws and commands too, as given by him, or is it only the Sabbath that you're concerned with?
Why is that?