Question about eternal damnation

[yaacotd]

I accept the statement of John the Baptist about Jesus being the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, and as for the fire and all, I see it as a cleansing. Are we not promised a New Earth? Further, are we not promised that God will be All in all? If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, that cannot happen.

Suit yourself.
I accept the Spirit of truth.

 

[aiki]

I wrote:

Okay, why? And how much, exactly, of teaching on the eternal destiny of man is sufficient? Who decides? You? Why you - or anyone else, for that matter?

Pneuma replied:

in other word you don't believe our eternal destinies have much to do with anything. Good grief. By the way it is not the universalist's who focus on an eternal hell as mans destiny it is you and yours who do, we don't believe in an eternal hell.

So go ahead and tell us why an eternal hell is so important to you guys if not one apostle ever mentions it.

You didn't answer my questions, Pneuma. You've simply deflected them - again.

I'm not sure why you keep throwing up these Strawman versions of what I think and have been arguing for. I guess for the reason anyone employs a Strawman: because a cartoonish Strawman version of an opponent's view is easier to knock down than their actual view.

In reality (as opposed to your Strawman), I think the eternal destiny of every person is incredibly - and very obviously - important.

I'm not going to concede - ever - that the apostles whose letters are found in the NT do not refer to eternal punishment in hell in their letters. As I've demonstrated, they most certainly do. It is a childish maneuver naughty children use with their parents to insist that because the apostles never used the specific phrase "eternal hell" that they therefore never had it in their minds when they wrote of sinners "storing up wrath in the day of wrath," (Romans 2:5-12) of "indignation and wrath" falling upon the unrepentant sinner on Judgment Day, of "tribulation and distress" afflicting those who do evil on God's Day of Judgment, of those who "drink of the wine of the wrath of God" expressed upon the wicked with torment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:10), of the unjust reserved by God unto the day of judgment to be punished (2 Peter 2:9), and so on. Children try to use such a manuever when, confronted by their parent about doing something wrong, they retort, "But you never actually said I couldn't light a fire in the kitchen sink!"

You did not cite one scripture that deals with eternal torment. Contrary to what you want to believe the scriptures were not written in English.

??? What? Where do I say that "I want to believe the Scriptures were not written in English"? What are you talking about? Yikes!

As for not dealing with verses that speak of eternal torment, see above. Sheesh.

The word in Greek for eternal is aidios and you have not supplied one scripture that speaks of aidios torment.

Childish arguing. See above.

eternal/aionios life is speaking of the life of that age, just as the punishment is speaking of the life of that age and nether have anything to do with eternal/aidos life.

MUCH MORE then aionios life


Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.

None of this addresses my point about the parallel in Matthew 25:46. It is a deflection - again.

Concerning aionios and aidios:

W.E Vine explains:

"AIONIOS - describes duration, either undefined but not endless as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the N.T.
The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the N.T. save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit,. 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15 where only in the N.T. it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14, and of the redemption affected by Christ, Hebrews 9:12...The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

AIDIOS: see EVERLASTING.

"denotes everlasting (from aei, ever), Romans 1:20, R.V., "everlasting," for A.V., "eternal"; Jude 6, A.V. and R.V., "everlasting." Aionios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios "everlasting." While aionios ...negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness."
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.)

"Indeed, the adjective aionian in this verse (Matthew 25:46) means "everlasting, without end"...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God...What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous...It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked."
(Reasoning From the Scripture with Jehovah's Witnesses - by Ron Rhodes)

 

[FineLinen]

Crazy is when you think
God is not going to do anything about it
when you sin.

Are you slow or just practicing? There is no free ride. The same mass "made sinners", are the mass "made righteous". Every last broken and lost one!

 

[FineLinen]

The foundation for "everlasting punishment"=

1.________________________________________________________________________?

2._________________________________________________________________________?

3.__________________________________________________________________________?

4.___________________________________________________________________________?

5.___________________________________________________________________________?

****According to the context of St. Matt. 25

 

[Faith Unites]

That you know of
I am sure there is much that you do not know.

insightful

 

[Lazarus Short]

What was the purpose of Jesus? Couldn't he have just waited till the end of the world to sacrifice for us and then be resurrected as the King of the new earth?

Jesus came at a very specific time, and those of us who have read "A Roadmap of Time" know part of the answer. Besides the well-known prophetic and theological reasons, Jesus made His appearance when 100-year, 500-year and 1,000 climate cycles were all crossing the zero-axis together. You would need to read the book yourself to fully appreciate this fact. Mohammad, on the other hand, came along at a random time in relation to the climate cycles, so I dismiss him as a prophet.

Nice deflection from my main point, btw, but I did notice.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yet not everyone will go to heaven and not all sins are forgiven. Luke 10:12 and Matthew 7:21

Jesus is just saying that some sins are worse than others, and that mere lip service will not avail sinners. I think you stretch the verses a bit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus is just saying that some sins are worse than others, and that mere lip service will not avail sinners. I think you stretch the verses a bit.

Really? Where does he say that? How did I “stretch it”?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Faith Unites]

The foundation for "everlasting punishment"=

1.________________________________________________________________________?

2._________________________________________________________________________?

3.__________________________________________________________________________?

4.___________________________________________________________________________?

5.___________________________________________________________________________?

****According to the context of St. Matt. 25

God will decide, not us

 

[aiki]

See you do teach another Gospel for Paul said Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. You changed the doctrine Paul commanded us to teach to suite your false doctrine.

Nope. Why does Paul make the qualification, "especially of those who believe"? If all men are saved, and Scripture makes it clear belief is necessary to being saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10), then all men are saved by belief. Why, then, the "especially of those who believe" qualification by Paul? It seems obvious to me that Paul caveats "all men" this way precisely so that a universalist construction cannot be put upon his words. Jesus is potentially the Saviour of all men, that is, he is capable of being the Saviour to everyone, but he is only actually the Saviour of those men (and women) who believe.

The wrath of God is the law and that law pertains to the age of law and not to the age of grace. If one falls out of grace they become entangled again under the law, which will school them back to Christ.

Chapter and verse, please. Where in Scripture may one read, "The wrath of God is the law"? I read,

Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Psalms 19:7-8
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;

and just what do those scriptures have to do with eternal torment? They are speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven NOW and have nothing to do with eternal torment. You are reading eternal torment into those scriptures.

Nope. In context, Christ is not speaking of a time on earth but of the Final Judgment at the End of Days.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"In that day"? What day is that, exactly? It is the day when men shall enter, or not enter, the kingdom of God.

Matthew 25:31-34, 41
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

according to scripture Love does compel us

How does love compel? It does so only when we first love the one whose love compels us. The power of my wife's love for me is enormous in its effect upon me and motivates me to love her in return. In regards to God's love, the apostle John explained the same sort of dynamic:

1 John 4:19
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

God does not say to us, "Love me! I command it!" No, He demonstrates His love toward us and in so doing induces us to love Him back. And once this is the case, once we have come - freely - to love God, then it is we may say, "God's love compels me."

Again wrath is the work of the law which ministers death, but is also a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

No where does Scripture say, "God's wrath is the work of the law which is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ." Scripture doesn't imply this, either.

God sent Jesus into the world to save the world, thus God started something and you say God cannot finish that which He started, you say the world cannot be saved. thus you are mocking God saying he started to build but is unable to finish.

Sure, the world can be saved. Will it, though? No. Only "whosoever believes" is saved (John 3:16) As I already explained - an explanation you have not actually addressed but have merely deflected, by the way - Christ was incarnated to make atonement for the sins of humanity. This he did perfectly. The work of atonement he started, he completely finished. How efficacious that atonement is for every individual, however, is dependent upon them choosing - or not - to avail themselves of it by trusting in Christ as Saviour and Lord. I don't, then, mock God as you say. Such an accusation is just another of the Strawmen you seem to like to use when arguing your position.

Your doctrine that teaches God will not save the world even though He sent Jesus to do exactly that, thus will miss his mark/sin is not a straw man it is the definition of sin.

See above.

 

[Faith Unites]

Dear Faith: I know individuals who nearly went mad with the ghastly dogma of everlasting torture by their heavenly Father. The glorious message of the restitution of all things has been heralded by/thru the prophets of old, and is declared quite clearly (for F.L. at least) in the N. Covenant. Do you know who Isaac Watt is? He wrote over 750 hymns, one of which we will be singing again this Xmas. Yes, he was one who grasped what is staring you in the face, but you cannot see!

This is of no relevance to the conversation. It is quite clear that we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Really? Where does he say that? How did I “stretch it”?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

This is what happens when two people read texts through different theological filters. Can you read green text through a red filter? Can you read red text through a green filter? What you believe colors your very textual understanding, and knowing that is more important (I think) than anything I can say to you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is what happens when two people read texts through different theological filters. Can you read green text through a red filter? Can you read red text through a green filter? What you believe colors your very textual understanding, and knowing that is more important (I think) than anything I can say to you.

Umm...your speaking nonsense I see only black & white here. No green or red text or filters just God’s word in plain black & white. Instead of spewing a bunch of irrelevant garbage why don’t you actually make a valid point by explaining exactly how the verse results in someone who has sinned against the Holy Spirit being forgiven?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

It doesn’t get any more plainly or clearly written than this.

 

[Faith Unites]

Jesus came at a very specific time, and those of us who have read "A Roadmap of Time" know part of the answer. Besides the well-known prophetic and theological reasons, Jesus made His appearance when 100-year, 500-year and 1,000 climate cycles were all crossing the zero-axis together. You would need to read the book yourself to fully appreciate this fact. Mohammad, on the other hand, came along at a random time in relation to the climate cycles, so I dismiss him as a prophet.

Nice deflection from my main point, btw, but I did notice.

I think you got the wrong guy lol. But yeah, Jesus came at a very precise point in time and for a very specific reason. That reason was not to tell everyone to do what you want whenever you want and youre good.

 

[FineLinen]

God will decide, not us

Excellent Faith: keep up the good work, I behold enhancement at the end of your journey!

 

[FineLinen]

The foundation for "everlasting punishment"=

1.____________________________________________________?

2.____________________________________________________?

3.____________________________________________________?

4.__________________________________________________?

5.__________________________________________________?

****According to the context of St. Matt. 25

 

[FineLinen]

I think you got the wrong guy lol. But yeah, Jesus came at a very precise point in time and for a very specific reason. That reason was not to tell everyone to do what you want whenever you want and youre good.

Welcome to the Ultimate recovery program

"God rescued us from dead-end alleys and dark dungeons. He’s set us up in the kingdom of the Son he loves so much, the Son who got us out of the pit we were in, got rid of the sins we were doomed to keep repeating.

Christ Holds It All Together

We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created.

For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him.

He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.

He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end.

From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. Everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but>>>

all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross."

-The Message-

 

[FineLinen]

This is of no relevance to the conversation. It is quite clear that we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

"No relevance", surely you jest dear Faith. You may disagree as long as you desire: the evidence is looking you in the face!

God is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all/ the ta panta

 

[FineLinen]

"No relevance", surely you jest dear Faith. You may disagree as long as you desire: the evidence is looking you in the face!

God is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all/ the ta panta

The message of the Prophets rings in our ears! The Universal Hum & its source {as yet}has not been discovered.

The Hum of all hums=

The Prophets

"He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass; as showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish: and abundance of peace so long as the moon endures. He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth." Ps. 72: 6-8.

"All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord; and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favorable no more? Is his mercy clean gone forever? does his promise fail for evermore? Has God forgotten to be gracious? has he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the Most High." - Ps. 77: 10.

"For he says, The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger forever". Ps. 103: 9.

"For his anger endures but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." Ps. 30: 5.

"If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgressions with the rod, and their iniquities with stripes, nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail." Ps. 89: 30-33.

"The Lord is gracious and full of compassion; slow to anger and of great mercy. The Lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works." Ps. 165: 8, 9.

"All nations whom you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name. "Ps. 86: 9.

"O you that hears prayer, unto you shall all flesh come." Ps. 65: 2.

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before you." Ps. 22: 27.

"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." Isa. 25: 8.

"Look unto me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself; the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall say: "In the Lord have I righteousness and strength." Isa. 45: 24-27.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied."Isa. 53: 11.

"As the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not thither, but waters the earth and makes it bring forth and bud that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa. 55: 10, 11.

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget you." Isa. 49: 15.

"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord, for I will forgive their sin and I will remember their iniquity no more." Jer. 31: 31-34.

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be your plagues: O grave, I will be your destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hos. 13: 14.

"Who is a God like unto you, that pardons iniquity, and passes by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retains not his anger forever because he delights in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us. He will subdue our iniquities, and you will cast all their sins into the depth of the sea. You will perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which you have sworn unto our fathers from the days of old." Mic. 7: 18, 19, 20.

"And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve him: his dominion is an ever lasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Dan. 7: 14.

 

[Faith Unites]

"No relevance", surely you jest dear Faith. You may disagree as long as you desire: the evidence is looking you in the face!

God is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all/ the ta panta

no evidence. zilch