BNR32FAN

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Yes speculation is irrelevant so its a good thing we do not have to speculate as the scripture proclaim that every knee shall bow in reverential worship and every tongue confess in joyous praise that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Well if you believe God can do everything He wants and He wants to save the world why do you then believe He can't?

There are NO scriptures that state not everyone will be saved. Read those same scriptures in Youngs literal or Rotherham emphisied for a different understanding of them, because what you are saying is both Paul and John were mistaken to say Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN/WORLD.

Your changing the scriptures to suite your doctrine for the scripture is plain Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.

I don’t see anything different in this translation my friend. These people still do not enter heaven.

“and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭YLT1898‬‬
Luke 12:10 and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven. | Young's Literal Translation 3rd Revision 1898 (YLT1898) | Download The Bible App Now

“‘Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭YLT1898‬‬
Matthew 7:21 ‘Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens. | Young's Literal Translation 3rd Revision 1898 (YLT1898) | Download The Bible App Now

I already told you which you’ve even mentioned in your question why do I think God can’t save everyone that I believe God can do anything He wants. Where does the Bible say God wants to save everyone? Your not correctly understanding the scriptures.

“The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬

“This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬

““For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16

God wants everyone to believe, repent and to be saved. If none shall perish and all have eternal life why even mention those who believe? Believing would be completely irrelevant.
 
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Faith Unites

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God wants everyone to believe, repent and to be saved. If none shall perish and all have eternal life why even mention those who believe? Believing would be completely irrelevant.

Yes, pretty much the entire Christian walk irrelevant. The Bible would look much different if unversalism was the key focus and not some theology you had to twist into effect. Sin enters when you start twisting things.
 
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aiki

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(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

Inasmuch as my point was about the obvious parallel in Matthew 25:46 that makes the eternal life of the righteous correspond to the everlasting punishment of the wicked, this quotation here has no pertinency. A parallel does not offer contrast, it emphasizes where two different things are the same, where they are in correspondence to one another. And since the eternal life of the righteous is the final destiny of the righteous, it stands to reason that Christ intended his audience to understand that the everlasting punishment of the wicked is their final destiny, too. This is the natural, straightforward reading of Christ's statement.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

This is just adding to Scripture to avoid its clear import. Christ offers no hint in Matthew 25:46 or its surrounding context that the everlasting punishment - not discipline which is corrective (see Hebrews 12:5-13) - of the wicked is merely part of a rehabilitative process. Such a rehabilitative reading assumes universalism when reading the verse rather than letting the verse speak for itself.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

The nature of a parallel denies the construction this quotation is trying impose upon Matthew 25:46. As I already pointed out, a parallel draws attention to where two things correspond, that is, they are the same in some way, to each other. The adjectives in Matthew 25:46 are functioning as a parallel - not a near-parallel - to each other and so are communicating sameness, not somewhat-sameness. Again, this is what is evident in a natural, straightforward reading of the verse, rather than on a reading relying on semantics and word-gymnastics to force the verse to a false universalist perspective.

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

You have assumed universalism for the phrase "in all"; universalism, though, is not evident in the verse itself. I already gave a reasonable alternative to such a spurious reading. Nothing you assert here gives me good reason to take your view and abandon mine.

According to the immediate context of the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same) it is children or "the sons of men" who the Lord will not cast off forever:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

As I already explained, which "sons/children of men" exactly are specified in verse 25:

Lamentations 3:25
25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, To the person who seeks Him.

Verse 33, then, is not a universal reference and so does not serve your universalist view.

Micah 7:18b he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. (KJV)

Micah 7:18
18 Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.

When the entire verse is seen, it is clear that, rather than supporting a universalist perspective, the verse is very limited and specific in the scope of its application to God's Chosen People, the Israelites, the "remnant of His possession." It's suggestive of the "wresting" character of your arguing that you purposely left out this important qualifying part of the verse.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls *which* I have made. (KJV)

Isaiah 57:16 (NASB)
16 "For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made.

Again, in context, these are the words of Isaiah the prophet to the wayward people of Israel. God is speaking to His Chosen People, not to the whole world, through Isaiah.

Lam.3:31-33 KJV, therefore, contradicts Mt.25:46 KJV.

Nope. See above.

Of course the wicked have to become righteous in Christ before God will accept them. Nothing in Psa.1:5-6 or any other Scripture says any will fail to do so.

Psalms 1:5-6
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.


What judgment is it in which the ungodly will not stand? Jesus offers some clarification:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Taken together, these two passages indicate very clearly that not all at the Final Judgment will gain entrance into God's kingdom. And those "ungodly sinners," the Psalmist mentions and the "lawless" ones of whom Christ speaks will constitute those who do not. Where will they go, forbidden from the company of the righteous and ejected from Christ's presence? Christ himself gives us an answer:

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In neither instance is there any qualification made indicating a rehabilitative purpose to the separation of the ungodly sinner from the righteous, the lawless from the lawful. Punishment does not serve a corrective purpose; that is the goal of discipline, of chastisement, in God's economy of things, not punishment. (see Hebrews 12:5-13) In fact, no where in all of Scripture can I recall reading any explicit teaching to the effect that hell is merely purgatorial, that it's purpose is to effect the rehabilitation of the wicked. No where. The universalist must infer this entirely, as you've done, twisting Scripture to fit your view and doing incredible explanatory gymnastics to account for the utter lack of any explicit, concrete teaching concerning the universalist doctrine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, pretty much the entire Christian walk irrelevant. The Bible would look much different if unversalism was the key focus and not some theology you had to twist into effect. Sin enters when you start twisting things.

Why even have a Bible or churches or spread the gospel if everyone will be saved? Why did Jesus die on the cross if everyone can pay for their sins in hell?
Nah
this is not true.

That’s it? What about the Young Literal translation of Luke 12:10 and Matthew 7:21? Are you going to address this error or dismiss it?
 
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FineLinen

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Ok, well im done conversating about universalism. Its not biblical and its quite dangerous to spread. Keep the focus on Christ and let him be the judge. Who cares about the rest

Dear Faith: We are discussing "damnation" and how the ghastly idea has gripped churchianity. Did you know "damnation" begins at the House of God? Yup, the same word is krima for the damnation of the masses and the Lord's House!

I care a great deal about the "rest", the broken masses of crippled souls for whom the Christ is the Propitiation!

 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear Faith: We are discussing "damnation" and how the ghastly idea has gripped churchianity. Did you know "damnation" begins at the House of God? Yup, the same word is krima for the damnation of the masses and the Lord's House!

I care a great deal about the "rest", the broken masses of crippled souls for whom the Christ is the Propitiation!

I don’t believe that is what Faith was referring to. I believe the point he or she is trying to make is just love and honor God and obey the scriptures and don’t worry about specific details that are irrelevant to our salvation. I don’t believe he/she meant who cares about those who are not saved.
 
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FineLinen

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I don’t believe that is what Faith was referring to. I believe the point he or she is trying to make is just love and honor God and obey the scriptures and don’t worry about specific details that are irrelevant to our salvation. I don’t believe he/she meant who cares about those who are not saved.

Dear BNR: The fact is the entire Word of the Lord is the comprehensive expression of the manifold expression of our Lord. It is just not "our salvation" that the Father is interested. The entire creation is His focus, and that creation will be set free from the tyranny of sin and despair, the whole broken mass "made sinners" in Adam One!
 
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Dear Faith: We are discussing "damnation" and how the ghastly idea has gripped churchianity. Did you know "damnation" begins at the House of God? Yup, the same word is krima for the damnation of the masses and the Lord's House!

I care a great deal about the "rest", the broken masses of crippled souls for whom the Christ is the Propitiation!

Personally I dont think hell has gripped "churchianity". The idea of universalism appears to have sprung about because people can not cope with the concept of an eternal punishment. "What about those who have'nt heard, will they be doomed?". I'm saying it is not our place to figure it out. Of course I care about people outside of the flock but I was referring to the topics on the periphery. TBH I'm more concerned about the people that think they are inside the flock though. Just focus on Christ and he will work his will in our lives individually. The blood of Christ can be applied sovereignly and whom he decides to save and damn is of no relevance to me, not because I don't care about the people but because it is 100% outside of my control.
 
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yaacotd

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Why even have a Bible or churches or spread the gospel if everyone will be saved? Why did Jesus die on the cross if everyone can pay for their sins in hell?


That’s it? What about the Young Literal translation of Luke 12:10 and Matthew 7:21? Are you going to address this error or dismiss it?
If the Almighty Living Lord God
of all the heavens and the heaven
and the earth
Who created all there is
all there was
and all there ever will be
wanted everyone to believe and repent and be saved

THEN IT WOULD BE DONE.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Crazy is when you think
God is not going to do anything about it
when you sin.

Or...is crazy forgetting that God sent us the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world? ;)

THAT is what God did about it when we sinned.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If the Almighty Living Lord God
of all the heavens and the heaven
and the earth
Who created all there is
all there was
and all there ever will be
wanted everyone to believe and repent and be saved

THEN IT WOULD BE DONE.

Evidently not since the scriptures undeniably say that God does want everyone to repent and be saved and the scriptures also say not everyone will enter heaven. Luke 12:10 and Matthew 7:21. God will not force anyone to love Him. Ultimately it’s our love that He desires. Love is not bought or forced it is a gift given freely.
 
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yaacotd

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Or...is crazy forgetting that God sent us the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world? ;)

THAT is what God did about it when we sinned.
If Jesus took away the sins of the world
then why is God going to destroy it with fire and brimstone
and cast all that offend Him into the lake of fire?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Or...is crazy forgetting that God sent us the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world? ;)

THAT is what God did about it when we sinned.

Yet not everyone will go to heaven and not all sins are forgiven. Luke 10:12 and Matthew 7:21
 
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Lazarus Short

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Yes, pretty much the entire Christian walk irrelevant. The Bible would look much different if unversalism was the key focus and not some theology you had to twist into effect. Sin enters when you start twisting things.

I have seen in the well-respected King James Version, these twists:

"judgment" rendered as "condemnation"

"condemnation" rendered as "damnation"

and

"sheol" "hades" "Gehenna" and "Tartarus" rendered as "hell".

Twisting into effect is not the domain of Universalism, but of Damnationism and Annihilationism.
 
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Dear BNR: The fact is the entire Word of the Lord is the comprehensive expression of the manifold expression of our Lord. It is just not "our salvation" that the Father is interested. The entire creation is His focus, and that creation will be set free from the tyranny of sin and despair, the whole broken mass "made sinners" in Adam One!
I agree that all of his creation is his focus, but you are completely ignoring this significance of free will. There is also zero evidence that you can be saved after death.
 
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Faith Unites

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I have seen in the well-respected King James Version, these twists:

"judgment" rendered as "condemnation"

"condemnation" rendered as "damnation"

and

"sheol" "hades" "Gehenna" and "Tartarus" rendered as "hell".

Twisting into effect is not the domain of Universalism, but of Damnationism and Annihilationism.
What was the purpose of Jesus? Couldn't he have just waited till the end of the world to sacrifice for us and then be resurrected as the King of the new earth?
 
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FineLinen

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Personally I dont think hell has gripped "churchianity". The idea of universalism appears to have sprung about because people can not cope with the concept of an eternal punishment.

Dear Faith: I know individuals who nearly went mad with the ghastly dogma of everlasting torture by their heavenly Father. The glorious message of the restitution of all things has been heralded by/thru the prophets of old, and is declared quite clearly (for F.L. at least) in the N. Covenant. Do you know who Isaac Watt is? He wrote over 750 hymns, one of which we will be singing again this Xmas. Yes, he was one who grasped what is staring you in the face, but you cannot see!

 
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If Jesus took away the sins of the world
then why is God going to destroy it with fire and brimstone
and cast all that offend Him into the lake of fire?

I accept the statement of John the Baptist about Jesus being the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, and as for the fire and all, I see it as a cleansing. Are we not promised a New Earth? Further, are we not promised that God will be All in all? If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, that cannot happen.
 
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