I understand what your're saying here and we probably agree in general. The point I was making is that destination talk can be somewhat misguided. Its kind of like telling someone that someday they will win the lottery, meanwhile they've already got the winning ticket in their pocket. The message is about Jesus and only Jesus. When we focus on the periphery we tend to get lost.
Yes the message is all about Jesus and what He accomplished which according to Paul is the salvation of ALL MEN. Thus all the judgments of God are corrective in nature to draw us to Christ.
Yes, God made man in his image but we probably disagree on what that means. IMO this simply means he gave them free will.
And I disagree that God sent Jesus to save the world.
John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him". "Through him" being the imperative phrase.
That disagrees with both Paul and John.
1Tim.4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the
Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Jn.4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son the
Saviour of the world.
as to Jn.3:17 I agree it is through Jesus Christ, but you read that scripture and believe that only some will be saved through him, I read it as believe as Jn. goes on to say the saviour of the world all will be saved through him.
Why limit Gods saving grace to only a few when the Father sent him and called him the saviour of the world?
Matthew 7: 13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it". Jesus talks ad nauseum to the disciples about staying on the path. He obviously thought it was of the utmost importance.
I agree staying on the right path is very important as it is the only way that one can enter into the kingdom.
To get a clear picture of who the people are who God says I never knew you we need to look at both set of scriptures concerning this point.
Matthew 7:13-23
13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:23-30
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
So who are these people that God says I never knew you to? And what two gates are being spoken of?
Let's look at who these people are first, then the gate that is being spoken of.
What do these scriptures tell us about the people God says I never knew you to?
Do not the scriptures tell us that these people SEEK to enter in? Do not these scriptures tell us that they have eaten in His presence and that God has taught in their streets. Do not these scriptures tell us that they have prophesied in His name, cast out devils in His name and done many wonderful works in His name?
So who are these people? Those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation would have us believe that these people are unbelievers. However can this be correct? Can one who has not known God SEEK to enter in, can one who knows not God cast out devils and do many wonderful works in His name? Look at what happened to the sons of Sceva when they tried to cast out devil in Jesus name. Is it not obvious that those who know not Jesus CANNOT cast out devils.
So again I ask who are these people.
These people are Christians, for only Christians SEEK to enter in, only Christians can cast out devils and do many wonderful works in His name.
Read Revelation chapter 2 and 3 and you will see just who these Christians are.
They are those who have not overcome and must therefore have their part in the second death.
Now I know those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation say that what these Revelation scriptures are saying is that their are some people in the churches that are not really believers in Jesus and these scriptures are talking about them. However who are these scriptures addressed to? Are they not addressed to the ANGEL/MESSENGER of each church? And unless these messengers of the churches overcome they to will have their part in the second death.
So we can see that the people God said I never knew you are referring to Christians who have not overcome.
So why would God say to Christians that I never knew you?
To understand why God would say I never knew you to Christians one need to understand who the overcomers are. Those who overcome are the many membered body of Christ.
So let's look at some more scripture as to why God would say to Christians that have not overcome I never knew you.
Isaiah 42:5-8
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for
a light of the Gentiles; 7 To
open the blind eyes, to
bring out the prisoners from the prison, and
them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and
my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Now most people use this scripture to back up the belief in the trinity, but there is no trinity being spoken of here. What these scriptures are pointing out is that God will not give His glory to any other then the one who is a light to the gentiles, the one who opens blind eyes, and brings prisoners out of the prison houses.
What these scriptures point out to us is that God will not give His glory unto any other then Christ, and Christ is a many membered body, an overcoming body.
So why does God say to Christians who have not overcome I never knew you?
Because God will not give His glory to any other but to Christ alone. God cannot recognise anyone other than Christ. God cannot recognise anyone whose old man is still alive and active. So unless Christians wake up and become a member of the body of Christ/overcome you will hear God say to you, sorry I never knew you.
Also of note is that God promised Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the sea shore. So unless God has revoked this promise to Abraham how is it that only a few are saved?
So now let's look at the two gates.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I don't think anyone would argue the point that these scriptures are talking about the kingdom of heaven so let's put that into the scripture for clarification.
Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which enter into the kingdom of heaven thereat.
Now look again what it says in Revelation.
Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and
may enter in through the gates into the city.
Who is it that is without the gates of the city?
Who is it that has right to the tree of life?
15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now remember what the scripture says, that only
those who do the will of the Father can enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Read Revelation 22:14 again
Revelation 22:14
14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and
may enter in through the gates into the city.
Once those who are without the gate learn to do His commandments or the will of the Father they have right to the tree of life and can enter in through the gates into the city.
I agree that God will do the saving, but I completely disagree that he misses the mark if everyone is not saved. Salvation is a choice.
That because you do not believe what Paul and John proclaimed, but if you believe their report and the world is not saved God fully missed his mark.
IMO God puts the importance of free will above simply having servants. If he wanted everyone to be happy always he would have created a diff world, but that world would have to exclude free will. He wants people to choose him, yes he does the saving, but we must choose him. He calls us but we must pick up the phone.
I agree with free will and believe every knee shall bow in reverential worship and every tongue confess in joyful praise that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now the argument that those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation make concerning these verses goes something like this. That every knee bowing means that some will bow in worship and some will be made to bow. That some will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and some will be forced to confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
However nothing in those scriptures state it the way those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation want to read it.
Let's take for instance the word
bow, in the Greek the word is kampto, and it means to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration and it is only used for religious veneration in scripture.
Thus we can see that being made to bow as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is in complete error.
Now let's look at the other word,
confess. The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate in praise of ones honour.
Thus we can see that being forced to confess as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is again in complete error.
A couple of other things of note here is that God gets
NO glory from
lip service, which is all it would be if people are forced to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And we also know that no man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
And that confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.
Another thing that those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation state is that those of us who believe the scriptures that state that God is the saviour of the WORLD or ALL MEN is that we take these scriptures out of context.
Well let's read them in context shall we.
Isaiah 45:20-23
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
God just finished saying He was a just God and saviour, then says look unto me and be ye SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH. Then God, because He can swear by none greater, swears by Himself that every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Thus the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation do not believe God can or will be able to perform that which He swore by Himself that He would do.
Now least someone say ,but those scriptures are only speaking of those who are alive ( and some have used this excuse to hold onto their erroneous doctrine). Look at what it states in Philippians 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and
things in earth, and
things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The scripture left
NO doubt that it was speaking of
EVERY knee and
EVERY tongue.
