My wife has advanced Alzheimer's disease.

[whereloveandmercymeet]

I think that even if you disagree with the OP you could do it with more compassion. It’s a painful situation to be in and I’m sure not made better by hitting him over the head with ‘vows’ and blanket statements about the future, which for him and his family does not have a clear path, a timescale or anything else at present.

We’re meant to love and encourage one another and we can still do that when we disagree.

My opinion is still that it’s between the three of them and God, and if they’ve prayed on it and asked for Gods guidance it’s certainly not my place to tell him what’s right or wrong. Just to pray for them.

 

[holo]

No one will stop you. You can do what you want. But you should do what God tells you to do in His Word, not what well-meaning people tell you to do, appealing to your flesh.

But is this really what God says? I can understand your attitude toward this, but it reminds me of when the Pharisees accused Jesus of picking wheat on the sabbath. They were blind to the point (or the spirit, if you will) behind the law.

And either way, I think the bible is pretty clear that the believer isn't supposed to live according to a set of rules anyhow, but according to the Spirit. Jesus taught his disciples a lot about how to live according to the law, but you're not under that law in any case. A lot of people assume that just because something is written in the new testament, it means it's part of the new covenant.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

No. You are just spewing your religious fundamentalist views on a subject that instead requires some tact, human dignity and compassion.

You are kicking a man while he's down. You're shouting from your high and mighty self-righteous trone. You show no compassion whatsoever.



You're only calling it "right" because of your fundamentalist religious beliefs.
There is no reasoning in your self-righteous judgement. There's only blind religious doctrine and obedience to perceived authorities.

Jesus: “If you love me, obey my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him." John 14:15

4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous. Hebrews 13:4

I will have to defer to the Word of God over your opinion. The loving thing to do is speak truth, not speak comfort in lieu of truth.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

OK, RTJ, You've been a caregiver. Do you have any idea what a dementia caregiver goes through?
Do you even know what ambiguous grief is? I've been Ann's caregiver and followed her decline for seven years. You want to dictate what my "shot at happiness" might be? Really? So, how would my shot at happiness play out? How dare you pass judgement on me.
Do you also know that caregivers have a 63% higher death rate than non-caregivers. They often die before the patient.
So, how would that honor my wife who, all alone, would be put in a memory care facility. So, THAT is your "truth"?

I must say, I'll give you credit for all your pulpit pounding but, I doubt if there is any better option for us at this point.
Also, keep in mind as to when and where those wedding vows were written. They appeared in England and Europe around the time of the great plagues. That's when "got sick and died" was an ordeal lasting a few days to a couple weeks, not almost a decade. Those vows, in my view, are outdated and obsolete.
That doesn't mean that I don't love and cherish my wife. I'm as devoted to her as I was when we were first married. And, I'm doing a better job of caregiving than I ever have.

I don't judge you. It is not my place. There is One who will judge and it is not me, believe me.

I have no doubt you love your wife. The troubling thing here is NOT that you got involved with this other woman helping you care for your wife, and sinned. Men sin all the time. Look at King David, having had Bathsheba's husband killed so he could have her! You or I can't top that. He sinned a lot - but when confronted , he always repented when he saw his sin. That is why he was a "man after God's own heart".

But you are not, like David, saying, " I didn't mean for this to happen, but I've been so lonely, she was there for me, and I sinned. Lord, forgive me. God be merciful to me, a sinner." That's what David did.

Instead, you are defiantly saying, "Well, because I'm fulfilling my obligation to physically take care of my sick wife in our home, and it is really stressful, adultery in my specific case is justifiable. I'm a special exception. Adultery makes me a better husband." Nothing but rationalization. More surprisingly, there are people here (in this Christian forum) rationalizing it right along with you. By your own admission, your wife is likely near the end but you will not do the honorable thing and wait.

This is not right. Everyone else can tell you it is, but it is not. I am sorry but sometimes you just have to speak the truth. If you think it is not truth, get in the Word and find out for yourself. Do whatever you think is right. I won't find out until afterward, anyway. I pray the Lord helps and strengthens you.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Jesus: “If you love me, obey my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him." John 14:15

4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous. Hebrews 13:4

I will have to defer to the Word of God over your opinion. The loving thing to do is speak truth, not speak comfort in lieu of truth.

Your beliefs are just your beliefs.
Truth is demonstrable.

You are just confirming the point that all you are doing is preaching religious doctrine in rather fundamentalist ways, from your self-righteous throne, without the slightest of hints of compassion or humanity in context of the specific situation at hand.

You live in a black and white world.
The real world, holds a lot of grey.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I'm going to continue my path and I don't give a rip what the bible or anyone says.
What's God going to do to me (us)? I'm already saved.

Yes, I took care of someone with dementia.

And yikes. The fear of God is not something to take lightly.

 

[DogmaHunter]

By your own admission, your wife is likely near the end but you will not do the honorable thing and wait.

Your idea of "honorable thing" seems to be nothing more or less then "adherence to religious doctrine" - and be miserable while doing so.

What is honorable about fundamentalist blind adherence to religious doctrine while it causes only pain and misery?

This is not right.

What you really mean, is "this is not in accordance with my specific personal fundamentalist view of the religious doctrine that you should adhere to because I believe you should".

"right" (or "wrong") in an ethical, moral context, has NOTHING to do with this.
This is just about your idea of fundamentalist adherence to religious rules as you understand them and nothing else.

Case in point, when bruce told you that a pastor of some mega church sided with him, you immediatly and unambigously called into question this pastor, his religious beliefs, his morals and even demanded bruce to tell you his name.

You weren't even open for discussion. You didn't ask to know / understand more about the pastor's reasoning. Nope. You just rejected it out of hand, at face value.

Because in your mind, YOUR particular flavor of christian beliefs and doctrine, gets priority / superiority over all others. And anyone that disagrees, must by definition be doing something wrong.

It's becoming more and more obvious with every post you make on the topic.

People who think like that, are actually precisely the reason that has driven the OP to come and write about it here. Because he does not find any support with them. All they do is shout bible verses and condemn him in the process, accusing him of all kinds of nastyness either explicitly or implicitly.

I am sorry but sometimes you just have to speak the truth

Again, what you are calling "truth" here, is no more or less then your personal beliefs about bible verses.

Do whatever you think is right. I won't find out until afterward, anyway. I won't find out until afterward, anyway.

There we go. The implicit threat. The fear card.

"do whatever you think is right", followed by that implicit threat, just to remind him "but if you choose wrong.... then hell! so you better listen to me!!!"

It's so see-through.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Your idea of "honorable thing" seems to be nothing more or less then "adherence to religious doctrine" - and be miserable while doing so.

What is honorable about fundamentalist blind adherence to religious doctrine while it causes only pain and misery?



What you really mean, is "this is not in accordance with my specific personal fundamentalist view of the religious doctrine that you should adhere to because I believe you should".

"right" (or "wrong") in an ethical, moral context, has NOTHING to do with this.
This is just about your idea of fundamentalist adherence to religious rules as you understand them and nothing else.

Case in point, when bruce told you that a pastor of some mega church sided with him, you immediatly and unambigously called into question this pastor, his religious beliefs, his morals and even demanded bruce to tell you his name.

You weren't even open for discussion. You didn't ask to know / understand more about the pastor's reasoning. Nope. You just rejected it out of hand, at face value.

Because in your mind, YOUR particular flavor of christian beliefs and doctrine, gets priority / superiority over all others. And anyone that disagrees, must by definition be doing something wrong.

It's becoming more and more obvious with every post you make on the topic.

People who think like that, are actually precisely the reason that has driven the OP to come and write about it here. Because he does not find any support with them. All they do is shout bible verses and condemn him in the process, accusing him of all kinds of nastyness either explicitly or implicitly.



Again, what you are calling "truth" here, is no more or less then your personal beliefs about bible verses.



There we go. The implicit threat. The fear card.

"do whatever you think is right", followed by that implicit threat, just to remind him "but if you choose wrong.... then hell! so you better listen to me!!!"

It's so see-through.

You are a atheist, I just now noted, under your name. You don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm not sure why you are interested in debating what you cannot understand. Why are you even telling Christians on "Christian Forums" what is right or wrong?

I was speaking to one who I presumed is in the faith. Perhaps I am wrong about that, so perhaps I'm just wasting my time, and if so, so be it. I just could not remain silent. The advice given by Mega Pastor is unbiblical and anti-scriptural on its face. It doesn't matter who said it. It's wrong if I said it or anyone else. If he gave advice to steal from his neighbors or kill them, it would be equally wrong, regardless of the so-called credibility of who advised such actions.

Your advice is exactly what one would receive from anyone in the world system who hasn't the faintest idea of what a relationship with Jesus entails in terms of privileges and obligations. Absolutely no surprises here. Do what feels good now, da*n the consequences (not sure if word will be edited out). YOLO.

This is like me piping up in a conversation between scientists to explain the details of how string theory works. Not my field or an area of strength so I am not qualified to be instructing others in that area.

 

[Tinker Grey]

You are a atheist, I just now noted, under your name. You don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm not sure why you are interested in debating what you cannot understand. Why are you even telling Christians on "Christian Forums" what is right or wrong?

This is an open forum for discussion. That is, it is open to atheists. If someone doesn't want non-believer input, they are free to create threads in the Christians Only sub-fora.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You are a atheist, I just now noted, under your name. You don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm not sure why you are interested in debating what you cannot understand. Why are you even telling Christians on "Christian Forums" what is right or wrong?

Here come the ad hominims and the handwaving.

My motivation is not the issue, nore is it your business.
And if the dude wanted christian-only advice, he could have just posted the thread in the christian-only section, which comprises the vast majority of this forum. I have these 4-5 sub forums I get access to. Now you are going to complain that I'm posting in that small section where I'm actually allowed to?

Whatever keeps you from addressing the points raised, I guess?

I was speaking to one who I presumed is in the faith. Perhaps I am wrong about that, so perhaps I'm just wasting my time, and if so, so be it. I just could not remain silent.

Yes, you just had to preach your personal religious views and talk about them as they are the ONLY correct interpretation and declare them all as absolute truth.

The advice given by Mega Pastor is unbiblical and anti-scriptural on its face.

According to YOUR personal religious beliefs. Clearly, not according to that pastor's personal religious beliefs. But here you are again, declaring that you know better. Not opening up a conversation. Not looking for a middle ground. Not even prepared to listen.
Just declaring that "on its face", clearly you are right and they are wrong and that's the end of it.

It doesn't matter who said it. It's wrong if I said it or anyone else.

Again, according to YOUR personal religious beliefs. Not according to that pastor's religious beliefs. And also not according to the personal religious beliefs of a few other participants in this thread. And once again, here you are, declaring that you are correct and everyone that disagrees must be wrong.

If he gave advice to steal from his neighbors or kill them, it would be equally wrong, regardless of the so-called credibility of who advised such actions.

Aha! But then, you would actually be able to present to actual moral reasoning behind calling it wrong - and that WITHOUT having to appeal to your personal religious beliefs. You could point at the very real harm done, at the very real victims etc.

You'ld have an actual argument, instead of religious declarations.

Your advice is exactly what one would receive from anyone in the world system who hasn't the faintest idea of what a relationship with Jesus entails in terms of privileges and obligations. Absolutely no surprises here.

psssssst: you literally just said that the pastor he talked to, doesn't have the faintest idea of what a relationship with Jesus entails in terms of privileges and obligations

And you know what? Indeed, absolutely no surprises here either.

Because you know... that pastor? Gave the SAME advice as me!

Do what feels good now, da*n the consequences

Ow really?
Tell me: WHAT consequences? In this specific situation?
The guy's wife more often then not doesn't even remember who he is, and that will only get worse.

So please, tell me: WHAT consequences?

This is like me piping up in a conversation between scientists to explain the details of how string theory works. Not my field or an area of strength so I am not qualified to be instructing others in that area.

Well, aren't we thinking a bit much about ourselves.....
So, who's the pastor in this story? A lumberjack, while you are the nuclear physicist?


So if you must know why I'm responding to your post... read my nickname. I'm a dogma hunter. You are presenting dogma (and, I would argue, causing harm in the process). So I'm hunting it down, in context of the OP. I can do that in this section of the forum.

If you want me to stop it, that's easy: stop presenting your personal religious beliefs as if they are absolute facts that all other theists must adhere to and agree with. But I don't think you're capable of it. So here we are, playing this game.



Anyhow, I look forward to you explaining what the consequences would be here, in this specific situation of the OP, if he starts a relationship with the other woman. Real-world consequences only please.

 

[holo]

Do what feels good now, da*n the consequences (not sure if word will be edited out).

Reading the OP's posts, I'm appalled that someone could accuse him of only caring about what "feels good now." Clearly, his attitude is pretty much the opposite of that.

But that's the problem with your religious take on this: he could have left his wife in a nursing home, let somebody else take care of her, not bother taking her to church every week etc. And you Christians would be so understanding! Poor fellow, right! It must be hard for him, let's give him some slack. At least he's not cheating on her...

Again, it's the exact same blind spot that Jesus confronted in the Pharisees. So focused on the letters of the law that both compassion and reason goes out the window, missing the entire point. The fact is @sprucebruce is honoring his wedding vows in a much more sincere way than most men would do in his situation (and probably most men in a normal marriage). He's clearly a man of character and high moral standards. It's a mistake to think that good moral behaviour is the same thing as following commandments.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Reading the OP's posts, I'm appalled that someone could accuse him of only caring about what "feels good now." Clearly, his attitude is pretty much the opposite of that.

But that's the problem with your religious take on this: he could have left his wife in a nursing home, let somebody else take care of her, not bother taking her to church every week etc. And you Christians would be so understanding! Poor fellow, right! It must be hard for him, let's give him some slack. At least he's not cheating on her...

Again, it's the exact same blind spot that Jesus confronted in the Pharisees. So focused on the letters of the law that both compassion and reason goes out the window, missing the entire point. The fact is @sprucebruce is honoring his wedding vows in a much more sincere way than most men would do in his situation (and probably most men in a normal marriage). He's clearly a man of character and high moral standards. It's a mistake to think that good moral behaviour is the same thing as following commandments.

It's a mistake to substitute moral behavior for truth too.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Here come the ad hominims and the handwaving.

My motivation is not the issue, nore is it your business.
And if the dude wanted christian-only advice, he could have just posted the thread in the christian-only section, which comprises the vast majority of this forum. I have these 4-5 sub forums I get access to. Now you are going to complain that I'm posting in that small section where I'm actually allowed to?

Whatever keeps you from addressing the points raised, I guess?



Yes, you just had to preach your personal religious views and talk about them as they are the ONLY correct interpretation and declare them all as absolute truth.




According to YOUR personal religious beliefs. Clearly, not according to that pastor's personal religious beliefs. But here you are again, declaring that you know better. Not opening up a conversation. Not looking for a middle ground. Not even prepared to listen.
Just declaring that "on its face", clearly you are right and they are wrong and that's the end of it.



Again, according to YOUR personal religious beliefs. Not according to that pastor's religious beliefs. And also not according to the personal religious beliefs of a few other participants in this thread. And once again, here you are, declaring that you are correct and everyone that disagrees must be wrong.




Aha! But then, you would actually be able to present to actual moral reasoning behind calling it wrong - and that WITHOUT having to appeal to your personal religious beliefs. You could point at the very real harm done, at the very real victims etc.

You'ld have an actual argument, instead of religious declarations.




psssssst: you literally just said that the pastor he talked to, doesn't have the faintest idea of what a relationship with Jesus entails in terms of privileges and obligations

And you know what? Indeed, absolutely no surprises here either.

Because you know... that pastor? Gave the SAME advice as me!




Ow really?
Tell me: WHAT consequences? In this specific situation?
The guy's wife more often then not doesn't even remember who he is, and that will only get worse.

So please, tell me: WHAT consequences?



Well, aren't we thinking a bit much about ourselves.....
So, who's the pastor in this story? A lumberjack, while you are the nuclear physicist?


So if you must know why I'm responding to your post... read my nickname. I'm a dogma hunter. You are presenting dogma (and, I would argue, causing harm in the process). So I'm hunting it down, in context of the OP. I can do that in this section of the forum.

If you want me to stop it, that's easy: stop presenting your personal religious beliefs as if they are absolute facts that all other theists must adhere to and agree with. But I don't think you're capable of it. So here we are, playing this game.



Anyhow, I look forward to you explaining what the consequences would be here, in this specific situation of the OP, if he starts a relationship with the other woman. Real-world consequences only please.

I don't care what forum you post in; I had simply not noticed before that you are vehemently refuting scriptural matters, as an atheist. While I personally don't understand your interest in posting in Christian Forums to refute Christians as to their beliefs, each to his own. I guess there are people doing such things all over the internet. Seems like a waste of time to me to refute something which I don't understand and in which I do not believe, but you do you.

You aren't going to offend me. Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of ad hominem. I am not and have not attacked you as a person. Saying you are giving bad advice is not an ad hominem attack. It's true. You are giving advice that conflicts with scripture, and for the Christian, that is not an option.

Everything I have written was complete "foolishness" to you. That's ok, and is to be expected. If you cannot even understand that adultery is wrong and that a married man has no business engaging in a sexual relationship with another woman while his wife is fighting a health battle, then we do not have a basis for discussion on the issue.

The poster will make his own decision, of course, but I only hope he seeks out the Word of God on whether he should do this rather than merely seeking opinions that support what he wants to do.

 

[whereloveandmercymeet]

Quite frankly I hope if I’m ever in the same situation I can show the same character as you Bruce and dedicate years of my life to giving such intense care that is very emotionally painful (for the carer).

I have no idea where it lies ‘religiously’. But I know one thing: if your wife loved you as much as you clearly love her, she would definitely not want you struggling and miserable just to adhere to ‘the rules’.

 

[holo]

It's a mistake to substitute moral behavior for truth too.

You're not addressing my points.

I'm married. I was approached at a party by a woman who clearly wanted to sleep with me, and I probably could have done it without ever being found out. I rejected her, and later talked with my wife about it. I could have said, "this woman wanted to sleep with me, but because I follow the rules, I turned her down." But the truth is I said no because I love my wife. It was tempting, we were all a little drunk and our marriage was in a rough place.

What do you think matters more to my wife: that I was good at following the rules of marriage, or that I stayed faithful because I love her? (After several years of marriage we all learn that love isn't merely a feeling, it's not the same as being in love all the time.) When we got married I told her I never want her to stay with me out of an obligation to rules. I want her to choose me every day because we're worth fighting for. God forbid(!) she stayed with me just to please the Christian community or be true to some religious rule. That's worthless. Anybody can do that. True fidelity has NOTHING to do with rules.

As an agnostic, I don't have to try to follow religious rules, but even when I was a believer, I didn't try to live according to commandments, but according to love. Or according to the Spirit, not the letter, to put it in Christian terms. The law is after all, as the bible says, for the criminals and lawbreakers, not for the righteous. So whenever Christians admonish each other to live according to some commandment, they are missing the whole point, they treat each others as sinners instead of the righteous saints they are according to the gospel. You (or the OP) may not agree that the believer is not under the law, but the OP still obviously sees the substance of the situation rather than whatever rules surround it. It honestly scares me that Christians can be so fixated on trying to keep this or that rule that they miss the whole point of the rule in the first place.

The OP is in a difficult situation, and I don't claim to know what the best thing to do is, morally. But I do know that "are you following the rules" simply is the wrong question.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Saying you are giving bad advice is not an ad hominem attack.

It is, if you base that statement purely on my person (my atheism) and don't actually address the points raised and the argument.

You are giving advice that conflicts with scripture and for the Christian, that is not an option.

In your opinion.

Clearly not in the opinion of several other christians, including that pastor.
You don't seem to be realising this. You don't seem to be realising that all you are doing here, is making your own personal religious declaration and pretending them to be absolutely true / correct. And whenever anyone disagrees (no matter their beliefs, cfr: that pastor), you immediatly on its face call it false. Simply because it disagrees with your own personal dogmatic religious beliefs.

That's your entire "argument": my personal religious beliefs dictate X. You don't have an argument (or at least: you haven't presented one). All you have, are religious declarations which are part of your own personal religious beliefs.

Everything I have written was complete "foolishness" to you.

You present no reasoning. You present no argument.
You just present your own personal religious dogma's.

If you cannot even understand that adultery is wrong and that a married man has no business engaging in a sexual relationship with another woman while his wife is fighting a health battle, then we do not have a basis for discussion on the issue.

His wife is not fighting a battle. His wife already lost the battle. The guy is not planning on stopping to care for her. MANY other people would have already put here in a nursing home a long time ago. He's not running from his duty or responsability. If anything, what he's doing is only giving him the strength to see it through till the end.

The poster will make his own decision, of course, but I only hope he seeks out the Word of God on whether he should do this rather than merely seeking opinions that support what he wants to do.

You mean: what YOU consider to be "the word of god". Once more: it seems rather clear that many christians don't believe as you do.

So what gives you the right to dictate to other people how they should experience their religion?



pssssst: you completely forgot(?) to answer the one question I asked: WHAT real-world consequences?

 

[DogmaHunter]

You're not addressing my points.

I'm married. I was approached at a party by a woman who clearly wanted to sleep with me, and I probably could have done it without ever being found out. I rejected her, and later talked with my wife about it. I could have said, "this woman wanted to sleep with me, but because I follow the rules, I turned her down." But the truth is I said no because I love my wife. It was tempting, we were all a little drunk and our marriage was in a rough place.

What do you think matters more to my wife: that I was good at following the rules of marriage, or that I stayed faithful because I love her? (After several years of marriage we all learn that love isn't merely a feeling, it's not the same as being in love all the time.) When we got married I told her I never want her to stay with me out of an obligation to rules. I want her to choose me every day because we're worth fighting for. God forbid(!) she stayed with me just to please the Christian community or be true to some religious rule. That's worthless. Anybody can do that. True fidelity has NOTHING to do with rules.

As an agnostic, I don't have to try to follow religious rules, but even when I was a believer, I didn't try to live according to commandments, but according to love. Or according to the Spirit, not the letter, to put it in Christian terms. The law is after all, as the bible says, for the criminals and lawbreakers, not for the righteous. So whenever Christians admonish each other to live according to some commandment, they are missing the whole point, they treat each others as sinners instead of the righteous saints they are according to the gospel. You (or the OP) may not agree that the believer is not under the law, but the OP still obviously sees the substance of the situation rather than whatever rules surround it. It honestly scares me that Christians can be so fixated on trying to keep this or that rule that they miss the whole point of the rule in the first place.

The OP is in a difficult situation, and I don't claim to know what the best thing to do is, morally. But I do know that "are you following the rules" simply is the wrong question.

I couldn't agree more. What you say, furthermore, goes for ALL rules / laws.
By very definition, rules are simply the generic default. A sort of general guideline. But when it comes down to it, then things are judged on a case by case basis. And while the rules might be used as a starting point, they really don't determine the outcome by default.

This is why in court both the defendent as well as the accuser get to have their say. This is why eventhough rules can be clear, judging cases according isn't. "murder is wrong" is such a rule. Nevertheless, we still have lengthy court cases when a killing is involved and judge and jury will try and get to the bottom of it, considering circumstances, intent, motif, etc.

The "general" rules aren't supposed to be imposed black and white on exceptional circumstances, and here we certainly have exceptional circumstances.

Anyone who wishes to use rules / laws in a black and white fashion, is in my view simply a dogmatic fundamentalist (no matter if it concerns religious rules or rules from the constitution). With little to no compassion.

The world is NOT white and black and things should be judged on a case by case basis.

Clearly, a wife with very advanced alzheimers, to the point that she doesn't even remember who her husband is, is a very different case then a wife with a depression or a paralysed leg or something.

But in the eyes of the fundamentalist, none of it matters.
It's.... black and white.

Some christians go even further then @RestoreTheJoy and even state that even after his wife has past, he can't enter a relationship with another. "once married before god, always married before god", they say. Such a "holy" relationship and the obligations it brings with it, goes beyond the boundaries of death, they say.

At least @RestoreTheJoy seems to be off the opinion that he's free to engage another woman after his wife dies.


This thread here = a prime example of how dogmatic religious life can be so harmful. It blinds the mind, it blinds reason, it blinds humanity and compassion.
All that matters are the religious rules. It's a sacrifice of your humanity in favor of blind adherence to a personal interpretation of religious doctrine.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

He's not running from his duty or responsability. If anything, what he's doing is only giving him the strength to see it through till the end.

Enough said. Adultery is not an acceptable action for one who loves God. It is a self-serving one.

John 14: 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (Jesus speaking).

Matthew 5: 7 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Jesus again)

John 10:30 I and the Father are one. (Jesus again)

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.”

God the Father calls His Son “God.” It is a reference to the Old Testament passage, Psalms 45:6-7.

So God has spoken on this issue.

And He does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

You're not addressing my points.

I'm married. I was approached at a party by a woman who clearly wanted to sleep with me, and I probably could have done it without ever being found out. I rejected her, and later talked with my wife about it. I could have said, "this woman wanted to sleep with me, but because I follow the rules, I turned her down." But the truth is I said no because I love my wife. It was tempting, we were all a little drunk and our marriage was in a rough place.

What do you think matters more to my wife: that I was good at following the rules of marriage, or that I stayed faithful because I love her?

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The law is after all, as the bible says, for the criminals and lawbreakers, not for the righteous. So whenever Christians admonish each other to live according to some commandment, they are missing the whole point, they treat each others as sinners instead of the righteous saints they are according to the gospel. You (or the OP) may not agree that the believer is not under the law, but the OP still obviously sees the substance of the situation rather than whatever rules surround it. It honestly scares me that Christians can be so fixated on trying to keep this or that rule that they miss the whole point of the rule in the first place.

The OP is in a difficult situation, and I don't claim to know what the best thing to do is, morally. But I do know that "are you following the rules" simply is the wrong question.

EXACTLY. You made my point. If you love your wife, you do what is right, you don't do it out of mere obligation to the rules. Likewise, If you love the Lord, you do what is right. You don't do it as a matter of following some list. His laws are written in our hearts now, as believers.

Yes, the law is for criminals and lawbreakers. With believers, we are to do right out of love for the Lord, not because of some rule we must follow or else. That's my entire point. That does not at all mean you act contrary the Word of God and it's all good. You are known by your actions and your words.

No one will stop him from sleeping with another woman with his wife in the house (ew). But that's not out of love for his wife. That's out of self-love. Be honest about that, as you were about your own situation at the party.

It isn't following the "rules". It's following LOVE to do the right thing, and put his wife above his wants for this short time left.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I couldn't agree more. What you say, furthermore, goes for ALL rules / laws.
By very definition, rules are simply the generic default. A sort of general guideline. But when it comes down to it, then things are judged on a case by case basis. And while the rules might be used as a starting point, they really don't determine the outcome by default.

This is why in court both the defendent as well as the accuser get to have their say. This is why eventhough rules can be clear, judging cases according isn't. "murder is wrong" is such a rule. Nevertheless, we still have lengthy court cases when a killing is involved and judge and jury will try and get to the bottom of it, considering circumstances, intent, motif, etc.

The "general" rules aren't supposed to be imposed black and white on exceptional circumstances, and here we certainly have exceptional circumstances.

Anyone who wishes to use rules / laws in a black and white fashion, is in my view simply a dogmatic fundamentalist (no matter if it concerns religious rules or rules from the constitution). With little to no compassion.

The world is NOT white and black and things should be judged on a case by case basis.

Clearly, a wife with very advanced alzheimers, to the point that she doesn't even remember who her husband is, is a very different case then a wife with a depression or a paralysed leg or something.

But in the eyes of the fundamentalist, none of it matters.
It's.... black and white.

Some christians go even further then @RestoreTheJoy and even state that even after his wife has past, he can't enter a relationship with another. "once married before god, always married before god", they say. Such a "holy" relationship and the obligations it brings with it, goes beyond the boundaries of death, they say.

At least @RestoreTheJoy seems to be off the opinion that he's free to engage another woman after his wife dies.


This thread here = a prime example of how dogmatic religious life can be so harmful. It blinds the mind, it blinds reason, it blinds humanity and compassion.
All that matters are the religious rules. It's a sacrifice of your humanity in favor of blind adherence to a personal interpretation of religious doctrine.

Covenants are not "rules". When you enter a Covenant to forsake all others so long as you both shall live, in sickness and health, for richer and for poorer, etc - that's what you do.

Murder is also not homicide or manslaughter. They are all different with different legal elements. If the elements are met, the charge sticks - which is what the fact- finding is about. If not, it is dismissed. Or a not guilty verdict is rendered, should the trial proceed all the way through. You are lumping together in both cases, disparate scenarios.

You can jump straight to what you are using as an ad hominem, that I must be a "fundamentalist" (which you intend pejoratively, though indeed I uphold the fundamentals of my faith as elucidated in the Word of God), so in your mind, my assertions are delegitimized. That's inaccurate on all points, but do what you like.

Murder IS wrong and renders the highest punishment, because murder contains the element of malice aforethought, which the other lower charges do not. Erroneous analogy.

The whole married after death thing is limited to a couple small sects and is not orthodox nor scriptural. Death ends the covenant of marriage. Jesus cleared that up Himself, saying they neither marry nor are given in marriage after temporal life ends. Mark 12:25