My wife has advanced Alzheimer's disease.

DogmaHunter

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He can find what God has to say on the issue just as easily - I'm not the only one who can seek this out in the scriptures.

Plenty of christians, and at least one pastor, looked at the scriptures and drew a different conclusion then you.

But he has made up his mind that he does not care.

He doesn't care about your personal interpretation of the scriptures, you mean.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So God has spoken on this issue.

And He does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

So much for a "new" covenant then, I guess.

That would also mean then, that keeping slaves is acceptable to you.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You can jump straight to what you are using as an ad hominem, that I must be a "fundamentalist" (which you intend pejoratively, though indeed I uphold the fundamentals of my faith as elucidated in the Word of God), so in your mind, my assertions are delegitimized. That's inaccurate on all points, but do what you like.

It's not an ad hominem. It is an observation.
A fundamentalist theist, is someone who is "fundamental" in following the rules of his religion to the literal letter in a black and white vision.

That is exactly the behaviour you are showing us here.
You don't consider circumstances. You don't consider 21st century scientific knowledge.
You don't consider the specific situation.

Instead, you JUST see the bible rule (as you interprete it). Nothing else. Literally, nothing else.

If that isn't fundamentalist behaviour, then I don't know what is.

The whole married after death thing is limited to a couple small sects and is not orthodox nor scriptural. Death ends the covenant of marriage. Jesus cleared that up Himself, saying they neither marry nor are given in marriage after temporal life ends. Mark 12:25

The people you are disagreeing with here, read the exact same book as you.
Once again, you are taking your own personal beliefs and expecting everyone to agree with you. And if they don't, then all you can do is dissmiss them and call them wrong, because for some reason, apparantly, your personal interpretation of christianity is infallible.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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It's not an ad hominem. It is an observation.
A fundamentalist theist, is someone who is "fundamental" in following the rules of his religion to the literal letter in a black and white vision.

That is exactly the behaviour you are showing us here.
You don't consider circumstances. You don't consider 21st century scientific knowledge.
You don't consider the specific situation.

Instead, you JUST see the bible rule (as you interprete it). Nothing else. Literally, nothing else.

If that isn't fundamentalist behaviour, then I don't know what is.



The people you are disagreeing with here, read the exact same book as you.
Once again, you are taking your own personal beliefs and expecting everyone to agree with you. And if they don't, then all you can do is dissmiss them and call them wrong, because for some reason, apparantly, your personal interpretation of christianity is infallible.
It is used pejoratively. That makes it an ad hominem functionally.

No, I don't consider today's flexible and situational morality when it comes to moral absolutes. It's no more acceptable to have sex with your dying wife's caregiver than it is to off some guy because he "really needed killing" and the world was objectively better off without someone with his views.

Not my call to decide. God has spoken (and the law still, in that case). We will get there, for most. We aren't there now.

When you are taking care of your dying wife, you don't get to justify an affair with everyone's approval. Some will approve...clearly. This post demonstrated that.

Some will believe that God meant what he said about marriage.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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So much for a "new" covenant then, I guess.

That would also mean then, that keeping slaves is acceptable to you.
Nope. Nice try. Slavery is not justifiable. Nor do any scriptures confirm that it is good and right.

Marriage, on the other hand, is established in its parameters quite clearly by Jesus, reaffirming the moral law, unlike say, sacrifices of animals or washing seven times to be clean.

When you are one flesh with someone, you can't also become one flesh with another.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Plenty of christians, and at least one pastor, looked at the scriptures and drew a different conclusion then you.



He doesn't care about your personal interpretation of the scriptures, you mean.
Uh huh. We have a plumb line though. Anyone working off another is not of the fold.
 
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Jon Osterman

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I think it is always important to remember that only God has the big picture. Only He knows your full situation and knows what you need to grow as a person. And I think it is important in life to have faith that He will do what is right for you.

So in this case, having a wife with advanced Alzheimer's should not be seen as a burden, but as an opportunity to serve God and display your love and devotion to your wife. If you stay true and away from the temptations of other women, you will find yourself growing in your relationship with God and being filled by God's spirit.
 
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whereloveandmercymeet

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I think it’s really easy to say what should or shouldn’t be done and what is or isn’t biblical but it’s much much harder to be living in the situation.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether we think it’s right or wrong. To an extent it doesn’t really matter what we think scripture says about it either. Because God’s the one that gets to judge, not me.

Of course there’s a perfect answer. But it’s not a perfect world and we aren’t perfect people.

So yeah. Try your hardest to do what you believe the right thing is, and realise you’ll have to stand by it before God.

It doesn’t really matter what I think about the situation, I’ll pray for the three of you.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It is used pejoratively. That makes it an ad hominem functionally.

No. To be an ad hominem, I'ld have to say that you are wrong because you are a fundamentalist. But that is not what I'm saying at all.

No, I don't consider today's flexible and situational morality when it comes to moral absolutes.

Yep, I know you don't. That's fundamentalism - to adhere and clinge to "absolutes".


It's no more acceptable to have sex with your dying wife's caregiver than it is to off some guy because he "really needed killing" and the world was objectively better off without someone with his views.

Wow. It seems your views are even more black and white and morally bankrupt then I thought.

Not my call to decide

Yet, here we are, with you passing judgement, based on your own personal fundamentalist beliefs, auto-dissmissing any other christian that doesn't agree, including at least one pastor.


When you are taking care of your dying wife, you don't get to justify an affair with everyone's approval. Some will approve...clearly. This post demonstrated that.
Some will believe that God meant what he said about marriage.

And some will have black and white vision with bible blinders, completely ignoring specific circumstances, scientific knowledge and compassion, in favor of blind fundamentalist adherence to their own personal interpretation of their religious dogma.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Nope. Nice try. Slavery is not justifiable. Nor do any scriptures confirm that it is good and right.

lol!

Apparantly, you skipped the chapters where slavery is fully regulated and allowed.

Marriage, on the other hand, is established in its parameters quite clearly by Jesus, reaffirming the moral law, unlike say, sacrifices of animals or washing seven times to be clean.

In your opinion. Clearly not in the opinion of other christians who read the same book.

So how do you explain that people who read the same book, can come to such vastly different conclusions?
 
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DogmaHunter

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I think it is always important to remember that only God has the big picture. Only He knows your full situation and knows what you need to grow as a person. And I think it is important in life to have faith that He will do what is right for you.

So in this case, having a wife with advanced Alzheimer's should not be seen as a burden, but as an opportunity to serve God and display your love and devotion to your wife. If you stay true and away from the temptations of other women, you will find yourself growing in your relationship with God and being filled by God's spirit.

Wait....

So your idea is that god gave this woman alzheimers as a "gift" to the dude?
 
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Jon Osterman

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Wait....

So your idea is that god gave this woman alzheimers as a "gift" to the dude?

I wouldn't put it quite like that. I would say though that God uses the adversity in our lives to mold us into being better Christians. I see echoes of that here. It is very tragic that his wife has Alzheimer's but sometimes tragedy changes us for the better, or at least provides an opportunity to strengthen our faith.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I wouldn't put it quite like that. I would say though that God uses the adversity in our lives to mold us into being better Christians. I see echoes of that here. It is very tragic that his wife has Alzheimer's but sometimes tragedy changes us for the better, or at least provides an opportunity to strengthen our faith.

Right, right.... he should actually be pleased that his wife is suffering so much, and him along with her (if not more then her, as he actually fully realises what's going on). Yes, what a great opportunity to "strengthen his faith". :rolleyes:


Sorry, but I can't take such drivel seriously.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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lol!

Apparantly, you skipped the chapters where slavery is fully regulated and allowed.





So how do you explain that people who read the same book, can come to such vastly different conclusions?
You are misquoting the intent which is not surprising. No affirmation whatsoever exists for slavery; and indeed, it is advocated to get free if you can.

The slavery situation at various times in history was merely acknowledged, not affirmed.

1 Cor 7:21 Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity.

That "do not let it concern you" does not in any way affirm or approve slavery, but merely was stating to a disparate group of new believers that it would have no bearing on living out your faith as a new believer.

It says what it says and gives the parameters it gives for believers.

There are those who twist what it says for gain, whether monetary gain, approval of man, validation to feel like a "good moral person" given the falsehood rife in the church today, whatever. That is just the truth.

There are sheep, shepherds, wolves, and goats INSIDE the Church; this is what you have to understand. They will be separated out in the end, not now.

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


The point being that some of the sheep don't even know they are sheep now, and goats do not know at all either.

Jesus says that if you love Him, you do what He says (and his scriptural agents who wrote the New Testament based upon fulfilling the Law in the Old Testament.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

(Remember this same Jesus who was abiding in His love, also turned over the tables and drove those out who would benefit monetarily from selling sacrifices in the temple. Love is truth, not just grace.

Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (like doctrines of baptisms, communion, etc).

2 Pet 3:2 "that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles"

Love the Lord and love your neighbor as yourself. Do what is right for him too, not just for you.

So anyone who is teaching others from a position of authority that it is perfectly ok today to do things proscribed for people of faith in the totality of scriptureis a liar. (Kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, fail to honor God or the Sabbath, sexual immorality of all kinds, honoring father and mother, theft, etc).
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Wait....

So your idea is that god gave this woman alzheimers as a "gift" to the dude?
He didn't say that Alzheimer's is a GIFT. You are literally unable to comprehend what is being said here because it is foolishness to you.

He said this: So in this case, having a wife with advanced Alzheimer's should not be seen as a burden, but as an opportunity to serve God and display your love and devotion to your wife. If you stay true and away from the temptations of other women, you will find yourself growing in your relationship with God and being filled by God's spirit.

This is a trial, not a gift. She deserves his love and devotion - not divided attention because he's in a relationship with a new woman - while she lives. He will grow in faith and power in the Lord during this awful time of trial if he perseveres and leans on the Lord instead of transferring his affections to someone else.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12

You aren't going to understand this, but there it is, just the same.
 
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holo

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Not my call to decide. God has spoken (and the law still, in that case).
That's the whole problem right here. I asked you why you believe this rule exists in the first place, and you didn't answer. But I guess it doesn't matter why the rule is there. It's God's rule, apparently, so we better keep it. There's no rule against getting a new wife literally a minute after his wife dies, so that would technically not be sin, right? You seem to be following rules because they are rules and you don't even seem interested in knowing about the reason for them. That honestly scares me. It's exactly what the Pharisees did.
Some will believe that God meant what he said about marriage.
It amazes me that you don't see how this condescending this seems. YOU know what God means, if someone disagrees with you, it's not that they honestly interpret things differently, it's that they deliberately revolt against God himself.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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That's the whole problem right here. I asked you why you believe this rule exists in the first place, and you didn't answer. But I guess it doesn't matter why the rule is there. It's God's rule, apparently, so we better keep it. There's no rule against getting a new wife literally a minute after his wife dies, so that would technically not be sin, right? You seem to be following rules because they are rules and you don't even seem interested in knowing about the reason for them. That honestly scares me. It's exactly what the Pharisees did.It amazes me that you don't see how this condescending this seems. YOU know what God means, if someone disagrees with you, it's not that they honestly interpret things differently, it's that they deliberately revolt against God himself.

Oh, I answered why it exists. But I will answer again.
Why did you tell your kids not to run out into the busy street? Why did you tell them not to get drunk or sleep with everything that moves (when they got older)? Why did you tell them not to spend $500 if they made $400?

For their own protection. God gave us His Word to protect us from the bad outcomes that can arise when you go outside of the parameters He set for His people, as the Shepherd, to keep them safe. There are ALWAYS reasons for parameters set, whether by God or by the world (as in the case of signs, like "Road Closed") God isn't just the big funsucker, trying to keep us from enjoying life. On the contrary, He came that we may have ABUNDANT life but we don't do that by doing what He told us specifically not to do.

You are right. If he gets a new wife a minute after the existing one dies, well that would be odd, because you don't marry someone in a minute. That would mean he had an ongoing relationship. It is FINE to have an ongoing FRIENDSHIP, but not to be committing adultery while his wife lives. I really don't understand your difficulty in seeing this, frankly.

You wish to simply categorize and dismiss me and I don't care about that. But you are missing the point if you think that the Lord is all about rules and regulations to suck the fun out of life instead of to guide and protect people.
 
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holo

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Oh, I answered why it exists. But I will answer again.
Why did you tell your kids not to run out into the busy street? Why did you tell them not to get drunk or sleep with everything that moves (when they got older)? Why did you tell them not to spend $500 if they made $400?

For their own protection. God gave us His Word to protect us from the bad outcomes that can arise when you go outside of the parameters He set for His people, as the Shepherd, to keep them safe. There are ALWAYS reasons for parameters set, whether by God or by the world (as in the case of signs, like "Road Closed") God isn't just the big funsucker, trying to keep us from enjoying life. On the contrary, He came that we may have ABUNDANT life but we don't do that by doing what He told us specifically not to do.

You are right. If he gets a new wife a minute after the existing one dies, well that would be odd, because you don't marry someone in a minute. That would mean he had an ongoing relationship. It is FINE to have an ongoing FRIENDSHIP, but not to be committing adultery while his wife lives. I really don't understand your difficulty in seeing this, frankly.

You wish to simply categorize and dismiss me and I don't care about that. But you are missing the point if you think that the Lord is all about rules and regulations to suck the fun out of life instead of to guide and protect people.
To the degree I give my children rules, it's to protect them. But it's more important to teach them to use their brains and hearts to make wise choices. I'm not one for following rules just because they're rules, unless, like with children, they are unable to see the consequences of their actions.

I would argue that God didn't give the law to protect people. In fact, the bible says he gave the law so that sin may increase. I know it sounds weird, but it's what the bible says. And it's true, regardless of whether you believe in God or not. The commandment isn't the power against sin, it's the power of sin. I think Paul is pretty clear about that, with all his talk about sin taking advantage of the commandment etc, as I'm sure you've read. The whole point is to live according to the Spirit, not the letter. I'm sure you can see it in your own life too: the more you try to live according to commandments, the more power sin will have over you. In the very best case scenario, you'll be pretty good at following a few of the commandments, which leads to self righteousness and condemnation of others. But more often than not, it'll lead to self condemnation. Which after all was the whole purpose of the law. It's the only thing the law can do, and it does it brilliantly.

And again, we don't agree that the law is for believers anyway. You may not agree that the believer is in every way dead to the law, but it's not like it's a controversial conclusion when you read the NT.

I understand your position, I just think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the gospel and the purpose and power of the law. If you're under the law (i.e. a Jew), you're under the whole law. You can't pick and choose which commandments to follow. If you're not under the law, well, then you're not under any part of it. To me the absurdity becomes obvious when you agree that he is in fact free to marry another woman as soon as his wife dies. As if that's the point of it. Of course it's not! It's just like when the Pharisees thought man was made for the sabbath and not the other way around.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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To the degree I give my children rules, it's to protect them. But it's more important to teach them to use their brains and hearts to make wise choices. I'm not one for following rules just because they're rules, unless, like with children, they are unable to see the consequences of their actions.

I would argue that God didn't give the law to protect people. In fact, the bible says he gave the law so that sin may increase. I know it sounds weird, but it's what the bible says. And it's true, regardless of whether you believe in God or not. The commandment isn't the power against sin, it's the power of sin. I think Paul is pretty clear about that, with all his talk about sin taking advantage of the commandment etc, as I'm sure you've read. The whole point is to live according to the Spirit, not the letter. I'm sure you can see it in your own life too: the more you try to live according to commandments, the more power sin will have over you. In the very best case scenario, you'll be pretty good at following a few of the commandments, which leads to self righteousness and condemnation of others. But more often than not, it'll lead to self condemnation. Which after all was the whole purpose of the law. It's the only thing the law can do, and it does it brilliantly.

And again, we don't agree that the law is for believers anyway. You may not agree that the believer is in every way dead to the law, but it's not like it's a controversial conclusion when you read the NT.

I understand your position, I just think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the gospel and the purpose and power of the law. If you're under the law (i.e. a Jew), you're under the whole law. You can't pick and choose which commandments to follow. If you're not under the law, well, then you're not under any part of it. To me the absurdity becomes obvious when you agree that he is in fact free to marry another woman as soon as his wife dies. As if that's the point of it. Of course it's not! It's just like when the Pharisees thought man was made for the sabbath and not the other way around.

Romans 5:20 (simple English version): God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful grace became more abundant.

It wasn't given because God wanted sin to increase. So we agree that laws/rules are for our protection. Once they are "written on your heart" (or secularly, known as a principle to an adult), then you don't have to reiterate it. Your kids know better. We are to live in the Spirit, and not by rules and regulations. BUT, as Paul also says right in the same passage in Romans 6 that we are to be dead to sin, not obey its passions.

We are to be free from being compelled to obey sin as "the righteous" now. We are to be dead to the temptation to sin. We don't simply continue in sin saying it's all good because we are saved and God understands how we have peculiarly difficult circumstances so it is ok for us. That's abusing grace, which is the position widely supported in this post.

"I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. Romans 6: 19

You do not believe he is free to marry when his wife has passed? On what grounds. Both in law (natural law here, not just "The Law" in the OT) and under any biblical definition, death ends the marital covenant relationship that is to be honored "until death do us part". 1 Corinthians states specifically that a man is bound to his wife so long as she lives.
 
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holo

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Romans 5:20 (simple English version): God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful grace became more abundant.

It wasn't given because God wanted sin to increase. So we agree that laws/rules are for our protection.
Actually, we don't agree on that. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the nature of law and grace, but I can try to explain (hopefully briefly) what I mean.

The law wasn't given to protect, but to accuse. The law never had the power to bring life, and never will. It would, had it been possible to keep it. But the whole point of the law was to make every man guilty, to make it abundantly clear that righteousness must come by grace, not works.
Once they are "written on your heart" (or secularly, known as a principle to an adult), then you don't have to reiterate it. Your kids know better. We are to live in the Spirit, and not by rules and regulations. BUT, as Paul also says right in the same passage in Romans 6 that we are to be dead to sin, not obey its passions.

We are to be free from being compelled to obey sin as "the righteous" now. We are to be dead to the temptation to sin. We don't simply continue in sin saying it's all good because we are saved and God understands how we have peculiarly difficult circumstances so it is ok for us. That's abusing grace, which is the position widely supported in this post.
The only way to be dead to sin is to be dead to the law. Because, as Paul says, the power of sin is the commandment. Without the commandment, sin is dead. It has no power. It's not just a biblical principle, it's universal. Tell someone they must not push the button, and they will want to push the button. The problem is that the law points to sin, it makes you focus on whatever it outlaws. So again, the more you focus on the law, the more tempted you will be to sin. The solution, for the believer, is to "die with Christ" and be released from the law. One doesn't become more Christlike by trying to keep the law, it will have the exact opposite effect. One becomes more like Christ by focusing on him. By that I don't mean to focus on his teachings about the law - after all, Jesus never once spoke to Christians. Had you lived at Jesus' time, you'd be either a Jew or a Gentile, but not a Christian. There was no such thing until Jesus had died and been resurrected. The whole idea of being a Christian is about Jesus' death and resurrection, not about his teachings to the Jews in matters of the law. Those things are really Old Testament stuff, it's just that since we've split the OT and NT at Jesus' birth instead of his resurrection, people often get it wrong. In short, when the bible says something about how to keep the law, it's not an instruction for you, because you're not under it in any way.

I don't see anybody here "abusing grace" - by that term I suppose you mean something like "go ahead and do something wrong, because you'll be forgiven anyway". No, the question is whether it's a sin to begin with. Some will say yes, some will say no. As for me, I'll say that the question itself is wrong. It's pointless to ask whether or not he's breaking a law he's not under. It's like asking you whether or not you're complying with Japanese law. I'm pretty sure you're acting pretty much in accordance with Japanese law, but that's just because you're a decent person and Japan's law are basically about being a decent person. Heck, maybe you live 100% in harmony with their laws, but it doesn't matter because you'll never be judged by that law.

That's in short what I believe Paul was talking about. Being dead to the law means being free from sin. Not because you're suddenly somehow keeping the law, but because you're free from it.

I mentioned my own marriage as an example earlier. When I don't go after other women, it has nothing whatsoever to do with me being under some law, written or otherwise. It has only to do with the fact that I love my wife. I don't consult any rule book or even a moral principle, I just focus on her. If I tell you, "don't lust after other women," what will you be thinking about? Other women! It's really simple, but it's still hard to understand. It seems like it's human nature to want to live according to commandments, I guess probably because it allows us to pass judgment on each other.
"I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. Romans 6: 19

You do not believe he is free to marry when his wife has passed? On what grounds. Both in law (natural law here, not just "The Law" in the OT) and under any biblical definition, death ends the marital covenant relationship that is to be honored "until death do us part". 1 Corinthians states specifically that a man is bound to his wife so long as she lives.
Again, I think the question itself is wrong. He's free to do whatever he pleases. If he's a believer, then according to the bible there is no condemnation for him. Not because he's good at keeping the law, but because Christ himself is his righteousness.

I'm not saying there's no such thing as right and wrong, good and evil. But it's not a matter of law.
 
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