My wife has advanced Alzheimer's disease.

[RestoreTheJoy]

Actually, we don't agree on that. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the nature of law and grace, but I can try to explain (hopefully briefly) what I mean.

The law wasn't given to protect, but to accuse. The law never had the power to bring life, and never will. It would, had it been possible to keep it. But the whole point of the law was to make every man guilty, to make it abundantly clear that righteousness must come by grace, not works.The only way to be dead to sin is to be dead to the law. Because, as Paul says, the power of sin is the commandment. Without the commandment, sin is dead. It has no power. It's not just a biblical principle, it's universal. Tell someone they must not push the button, and they will want to push the button. The problem is that the law points to sin, it makes you focus on whatever it outlaws. So again, the more you focus on the law, the more tempted you will be to sin. The solution, for the believer, is to "die with Christ" and be released from the law. One doesn't become more Christlike by trying to keep the law, it will have the exact opposite effect. One becomes more like Christ by focusing on him. By that I don't mean to focus on his teachings about the law - after all, Jesus never once spoke to Christians. Had you lived at Jesus' time, you'd be either a Jew or a Gentile, but not a Christian. There was no such thing until Jesus had died and been resurrected. The whole idea of being a Christian is about Jesus' death and resurrection, not about his teachings to the Jews in matters of the law. Those things are really Old Testament stuff, it's just that since we've split the OT and NT at Jesus' birth instead of his resurrection, people often get it wrong. In short, when the bible says something about how to keep the law, it's not an instruction for you, because you're not under it in any way.

I don't see anybody here "abusing grace" - by that term I suppose you mean something like "go ahead and do something wrong, because you'll be forgiven anyway". No, the question is whether it's a sin to begin with. Some will say yes, some will say no. As for me, I'll say that the question itself is wrong. It's pointless to ask whether or not he's breaking a law he's not under. It's like asking you whether or not you're complying with Japanese law. I'm pretty sure you're acting pretty much in accordance with Japanese law, but that's just because you're a decent person and Japan's law are basically about being a decent person. Heck, maybe you live 100% in harmony with their laws, but it doesn't matter because you'll never be judged by that law.

That's in short what I believe Paul was talking about. Being dead to the law means being free from sin. Not because you're suddenly somehow keeping the law, but because you're free from it.

I mentioned my own marriage as an example earlier. When I don't go after other women, it has nothing whatsoever to do with me being under some law, written or otherwise. It has only to do with the fact that I love my wife. I don't consult any rule book or even a moral principle, I just focus on her. If I tell you, "don't lust after other women," what will you be thinking about? Other women! It's really simple, but it's still hard to understand. It seems like it's human nature to want to live according to commandments, I guess probably because it allows us to pass judgment on each other.Again, I think the question itself is wrong. He's free to do whatever he pleases. If he's a believer, then according to the bible there is no condemnation for him. Not because he's good at keeping the law, but because Christ himself is his righteousness.

I'm not saying there's no such thing as right and wrong, good and evil. But it's not a matter of law.

You have conflated talking about rules/laws (both natural and spiritual) which do indeed occur for our protection with "The OT law", a different subject. We agree that "The Law" does not give life, nor did I say it did. JESUS is the way, the truth, and the Life. You are using "die to self" interchangeably with "ignore the law", and they are not the same thing. The Law is now written on your heart, as the believer and you will naturally not want to sin. You won't find loopholes to sin because you aren't under Law.

Those that love Him will do what He says. He says that you are bound to a wife so long as she lives because the two become one flesh. You can't be one flesh with someone and decide to be one flesh with someone else.

‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’” Jesus says in Matt 19:4-5. He was specific that it was created to be between one male and one female. This also debunks the notion that God allows for more than one wife or more than one husband. The “two shall become one” and not more than two or three can become one.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that a man can multiply wives or a woman can have more than one husband. Even though some of the ancient kings and Patriarchs did, this was not the way that God intended. God specifically told the Kings NOT to "multiply wives" in Deuteronomy. And this is what Jesus says (not the Law - Jesus) about even thinking about wanting to have sex with someone other than your wife (using the word "inappropriate contentea" to cover all sexual immorality, not just adultery): ’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.”

Right. When you die with Christ, you won't want to sin. You are suggesting that it's ok because we aren't under Law. No, we are under a higher Law - the Law of Love, the standard that is higher than the law.

Jesus spoke to his disciples, mostly Jews, but also others as well.

 

[holo]

You have conflated talking about rules/laws (both natural and spiritual) which do indeed occur for our protection with "The OT law", a different subject. We agree that "The Law" does not give life, nor did I say it did. JESUS is the way, the truth, and the Life. You are using "die to self" interchangeably with "ignore the law", and they are not the same thing. The Law is now written on your heart, as the believer and you will naturally not want to sin. You won't find loopholes to sin because you aren't under Law.

The law is for sinners and criminals, not for the righteous. The believer is free to ignore the law because he's dead to it. That's what dying with Christ means as far as I can tell. He will not be judged according to it, and Paul makes a point of being dead to the law in order that you may belong to another, i.e. Christ. So for the believer, the question of right and wrong isn't about whether or not your actions conform to the law.

Those that love Him will do what He says. He says that you are bound to a wife so long as she lives because the two become one flesh. You can't be one flesh with someone and decide to be one flesh with someone else.

This again is where we disagree. You assume that everything Jesus said was directed to you, while I think it was directed to his audience at the time, or more broadly speaking anyone who is (or wants to be) under the law. He was pretty clear about what it meant to be justified according to the law - it's a much higher standard than the law the Jews (thought they) were keeping. Give all you have to the poor, don't even think about adultery and so on.

Right. When you die with Christ, you won't want to sin. You are suggesting that it's ok because we aren't under Law.

I'm not saying it's ok to sin, but that the believer is 100% justified and righteous and is dead to the law. I consider myself "dead" to any law that demands I be faithful to my wife. It may be that my actions conform to some law (God-given or otherwise), but I'm not trying to keep any law. The moment you try to live according to the commandments, sin springs to life. The only way to be free from sin is to be free from the law.

Jesus spoke to his disciples, mostly Jews, but also others as well.

That's an assumption. As far as I can tell, Jesus was pretty clear about who he was sent to (the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"). And Pauls points that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

First of all, I'm very sorry that your wife, and you, have to deal with this.
I can only imagine the pain and stress that this causes for the both of you, as well as any potential children you have etc.

For that, and for the way you stand tall facing this situation and taking care of her, you have my outmost respect. It's in times like this that true love shows its face. It's very easy to "love one another" when all is fine and dandy. Imo, true love is really about how you deal and cope with the harder aspects of life. I can only hope that more people like you exist.

Your wife is lucky to have you as a husband. I mean that.



In all brutal honesty, what I would say to them, is something I can't say to this forum. It starts with an F.




It absolutely is not.
It's not like you are abbandoning her for someone else.
But you are a human and you are healthy. As hard as it might sound, in a very real sense it could be said that this is a lot harder on you then it is on your wife. You actually have full realisation of the situation. You remember everything. You need your own support to mentally cope with the situation.

It's not being selfish. It's taking care of yourself also.

It's not like this is a temporary state that your wife is in. As far as I know / understand this condition / desease, she will not get better and in fact only get worse over time.

You need to take care of yourself, your own mental state, as well. In a very real sense, you taking care of yourself, is ALSO taking care of your wife. Because it means that you can "recharge" and find the strenght to go on. I think some people would be better at coping with such a situation then others. And both are fine. If you feel like you need to do this for yourself, then do so. There's nothing wrong with it.

As brutal as it sounds, mentally you have already lost your wife. To be perfectly honest with you..... I think I would prefer my wife to have a quick death as opposed to such a downwards sipral. I can only have respect for people like you, who find the strength to go on in such situations.

But you are still healthy. There is nothing wrong with your needs. Needs that your wife, sad as it is, can no longer fullfill. There's nothing wrong with you looking to others to satisfy those needs. It doesn't change your love for your wife. It doesn't change your care for her. In fact, it would only help those things, because it will help you finding the strenght to go on.

Don't listen to what those .... are saying. Let's see how they would deal with such a situation - then they can talk.



Go for it. You deserve it.

So you say the word you would say starts with an F?
Is it fidelity, or faithfulness?

 

[DogmaHunter]

So you say the word you would say starts with an F?
Is it fidelity, or faithfulness?

Or Flabbergasted

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I consider myself "dead" to any law that demands I be faithful to my wife. It may be that my actions conform to some law (God-given or otherwise), but I'm not trying to keep any law. The moment you try to live according to the commandments, sin springs to life. The only way to be free from sin is to be free from the law.

Ok, so if you consider yourself dead to the law that requires you to be faithful, what keeps you faithful to her? If you are in Christ, that is the law of love. You can call it anything you like. The entirety of the law is subsumed in two commandments; Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

The law of love is a HIGHER standard, not a lower standard than the OT law. You want to do the right thing because the "law" is now written on your heart, and not just in a book. Otherwise, it is all very subjective. If it is just because you want to love her today, you may not feel that way tomorrow when something appealing comes your way.

I'm really not sure where were are in disagreement here, or if we are.

 

[holo]

Ok, so if you consider yourself dead to the law that requires you to be faithful, what keeps you faithful to her? If you are in Christ, that is the law of love. You can call it anything you like. The entirety of the law is subsumed in two commandments; Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

The law of love is a HIGHER standard, not a lower standard than the OT law. You want to do the right thing because the "law" is now written on your heart, and not just in a book. Otherwise, it is all very subjective. If it is just because you want to love her today, you may not feel that way tomorrow when something appealing comes your way.

I'm really not sure where were are in disagreement here, or if we are.

Love isn't about how you're feeling today. My fidelity doesn't depend on whether or not I'm in a romantic mood or have been annoyed with my wife for the last month.

The point is that in a relationship, you shouldn't need to consult some commandment to know the right thing to do. Surely there can be dilemmas where the right action isn't obvious, but again the law is for the criminals and godless, not the righteous. There's a reason there's so much divorce and other things you'd probably call sin among Christians - it's because of how most of them see themselves. If people keep telling you you're a sinner, and you keep telling yourself that, no wonder you keep sinning. And when they do, they often seem to think that the solution is more law, and more dedication to keeping the commandments. But like Paul says, when the commandment comes, sin springs to life. Happens every time. You may think you're good at keeping this or that commandment, but more often than not, that only leads to another sin: condemnation of those who don't.

As far as I can tell, that's the whole essence of the gospel: the believer isn't under the law. He is free from sin, not because he keeps the law, but because he's dead to it. A believer isn't a sinner, and shouldn't be treated as one, or act as one.

If the OP think he's under law, then the question is which commandments exactly he's under, and what they mean. Like, should he keep the sabbath? If so, must he do it according to the details of the law, or can he switch days, for example? Is he allowed to remarry, if so in which circumstance. And so forth. Christians argue about stuff like that all the time. But IMO it's pointless to debate which commandments still apply when you're dead to the law anyway.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Love isn't about how you're feeling today. My fidelity doesn't depend on whether or not I'm in a romantic mood or have been annoyed with my wife for the last month.

The point is that in a relationship, you shouldn't need to consult some commandment to know the right thing to do. Surely there can be dilemmas where the right action isn't obvious, but again the law is for the criminals and godless, not the righteous. There's a reason there's so much divorce and other things you'd probably call sin among Christians - it's because of how most of them see themselves. If people keep telling you you're a sinner, and you keep telling yourself that, no wonder you keep sinning. And when they do, they often seem to think that the solution is more law, and more dedication to keeping the commandments. But like Paul says, when the commandment comes, sin springs to life. Happens every time. You may think you're good at keeping this or that commandment, but more often than not, that only leads to another sin: condemnation of those who don't.

As far as I can tell, that's the whole essence of the gospel: the believer isn't under the law. He is free from sin, not because he keeps the law, but because he's dead to it. A believer isn't a sinner, and shouldn't be treated as one, or act as one.

If the OP think he's under law, then the question is which commandments exactly he's under, and what they mean. Like, should he keep the sabbath? If so, must he do it according to the details of the law, or can he switch days, for example? Is he allowed to remarry, if so in which circumstance. And so forth. Christians argue about stuff like that all the time. But IMO it's pointless to debate which commandments still apply when you're dead to the law anyway.

It's about obedience. Knowing them by their fruits, as Jesus mentions, refers to the fruit of obedience.

So if the Word of God has spoken on a matter, then if you are with Him, you are doing it, and above and beyond, under the "law" of love.

 

[holo]

It's about obedience. Knowing them by their fruits, as Jesus mentions, refers to the fruit of obedience.

So if the Word of God has spoken on a matter, then if you are with Him, you are doing it, and above and beyond, under the "law" of love.

I don't think it has to do with obedience at all. Obedience to what? Many Christians seem to think the new covenant is just like the old one, the only difference is that some commandments have changed. Instead of a pretty clear list of commandments and regulations like in the OT, now the commandments are more or less hidden in the NT, and we have to take some(!) of what Jesus said about keeping the law, and some of what Paul seems to command, a little of James, and do our best to cobble together a sort of law from it all.

The commandment triggers sin, as we know. Another big problem with trying to live according to commandments (what you call obedience, I guess), is that the commandment is black and white while the world is in colour. For example there are many Christians who are serious about not getting divorced unless the other has been unfaithful. Sounds good until you consider the marriages where people are abusing each other physically or emotionally. Can they get a divorce? No, because that would be sin. But if one of them is a raving psychopath, they can get separated. Because there's no commandment against that. They can dissolve absolutely everything a marriage is all about, except getting divorced legally, because that would be a sin. It's situations like this that make it clear how useless and even dangerous it can be to try and live according to the law above all else.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

For example there are many Christians who are serious about not getting divorced unless the other has been unfaithful. Sounds good until you consider the marriages where people are abusing each other physically or emotionally. Can they get a divorce? No, because that would be sin. But if one of them is a raving psychopath, they can get separated. Because there's no commandment against that. They can dissolve absolutely everything a marriage is all about, except getting divorced legally, because that would be a sin. It's situations like this that make it clear how useless and even dangerous it can be to try and live according to the law above all else.

Well, that isn't the case here. He doesn't want to divorce anyone. This is a case of not wanting to wait to be with another woman because the wife is still alive.

 

[holo]

Well, that isn't the case here. He doesn't want to divorce anyone. This is a case of not wanting to wait to be with another woman because the wife is still alive.

I used it as an example of hos useless (and often counterproductive) it is to get hung up on keeping commandments if you're trying to figure out the right thing to do.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Ok, so if you consider yourself dead to the law that requires you to be faithful, what keeps you faithful to her?

I don't know about you, but I don't require any authorities commanding me to be faithfull and respectfull, to actually be faithfull and respectfull.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be with someone who's only being faithfull because some perceived authority demands it. I prefer to deal with people who are actually sincere.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It's about obedience.

And that's where you are wrong.
It's not about mere obedience.

If tomorrow I find out that my other half only remains with me because of obedience to some perceived authority, I'll kick her out (or leave myself).

Again, I prefer sincerity instead of obedience.
I want my wife to stay because she wants to, not because she feels like she has to.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

And that's where you are wrong.
It's not about mere obedience.

If tomorrow I find out that my other half only remains with me because of obedience to some perceived authority, I'll kick her out (or leave myself).

Again, I prefer sincerity instead of obedience.
I want my wife to stay because she wants to, not because she feels like she has to.

The two are not incompatible. You are attempting to create a false dichotomy. Someone doesn't either obey God OR love his wife. You do the right thing because you WANT to, because you love the other person, AND because you love God. If you love the Lord, you do what he said...He told us that.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I don't know about you, but I don't require any authorities commanding me to be faithfull and respectfull, to actually be faithfull and respectfull.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be with someone who's only being faithfull because some perceived authority demands it. I prefer to deal with people who are actually sincere.

Right. You do it because you want to, today. It is only tangential in your case - at the moment - that this is also what the Lord requires. But for the believer, that is the guideline that tells you that what you want to do is indeed the right thing. It won't violate His Word.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The two are not incompatible. You are attempting to create a false dichotomy. Someone doesn't either obey God OR love his wife.

No, that's what you made of it.
At no point did I exclude the possibility that what someone wants can be the same as what a perceived authority wants that person to do.

You do the right thing because you WANT to, because you love the other person, AND because you love God. If you love the Lord, you do what he said...He told us that.

What the right thing is, isn't derived from what perceived authorities say.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Right. You do it because you want to, today. It is only tangential in your case - at the moment - that this is also what the Lord requires. But for the believer, that is the guideline that tells you that what you want to do is indeed the right thing. It won't violate His Word.

You aren't making any sense to me here.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

You aren't making any sense to me here.

I know.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

No, that's what you made of it.
At no point did I exclude the possibility that what someone wants can be the same as what a perceived authority wants that person to do.





What the right thing is, isn't derived from what perceived authorities say.

Your words:
Again, I prefer sincerity instead of obedience.
I want my wife to stay because she wants to, not because she feels like she has to.


Instead of implies either/or. There is only God. Not "perceived authorities".

 

[SwordmanJr]

Is it that horrible to try to take care of myself while caring for a woman I still love dearly but who, sometimes, doesn't even know my name?

There's no right answer to the wrong question.

Caregivers often die of a broken heart and extreme stress before the patient does. I do not want to be the second victim of this horrible disease but I always want to do what is right for my wife first, myself and our friend who, I feel, will make a wonderful wife down the road.

The biblical standard for the martial bond being disolved is death, not the wife's awareness of your name or her cognizance of your relationship to her. I've read with interest other people's acquiescence to the justifications you have concocted for yourself for the choices you and your children have made to accept your actions, but don't expect all others to depart from the biblical commands in order to help you feel good about the choices you have made. I don't have to judge you. The choice you have made stands judged by God's righteous standards already, not anything I may come up with in my own mind on the basis of scripture. You have already become one flesh with that other woman. If she is not your wife, then it is fornication, pure and simple.

Jr.

 

[sprucebruce]

Or Flabbergasted

Flatulated (depending on what I had for dinner)