My wife has advanced Alzheimer's disease.

[RestoreTheJoy]

Reading the OP's posts, I'm appalled that someone could accuse him of only caring about what "feels good now." Clearly, his attitude is pretty much the opposite of that.

But that's the problem with your religious take on this: he could have left his wife in a nursing home, let somebody else take care of her, not bother taking her to church every week etc. And you Christians would be so understanding! Poor fellow, right! It must be hard for him, let's give him some slack. At least he's not cheating on her...

Again, it's the exact same blind spot that Jesus confronted in the Pharisees. So focused on the letters of the law that both compassion and reason goes out the window, missing the entire point. The fact is @sprucebruce is honoring his wedding vows in a much more sincere way than most men would do in his situation (and probably most men in a normal marriage). He's clearly a man of character and high moral standards. It's a mistake to think that good moral behaviour is the same thing as following commandments.

No one is accusing him of any motives. Perhaps he was pure as the driven snow when he entered this relationship. We don't know. Not judging anything except his assertion that adultery is fine because he takes care of his wife too.

I am addressing the actions only. Period.

You then resort to the relative privation fallacy, arguing that adultery is "not as bad as throwing her in a home", in an attempt to negate the significance of adultery. Not logical.

Jesus had plenty to say about marriage so it must have been pretty important to Him.

 

[ColoRaydo]

Quoting a bunch of scripture doesn't do a thing for my wife or me. Thanks anyway.

This site is full of people who quote scripture and tell other people what to do in impossible situations that they themselves are not experiencing.

From their legalistic viewpoint I would assume they wouldn’t object to you marrying the new woman an hour or so after your wife’s death because you are meeting the letter of the law, so to speak.

I understand in part what you are experiencing. Seven years ago my father was a respected doctor with a large practice. Today he’s basically a toddler who watches the same cowboy movie over and over again due to Alzheimer’s disease. He doesn’t recognize any of his grandkids and can’t control his bodily functions. It’s a cruel disease that takes away as much from the family as the individual because it is slow and unrelenting.

I say enjoy your new partner. Where it leads, God will show you. You still love your wife and would change the situation if you could. You are doing the right thing all around.

God bless you and stay strong.

 

[holo]

EXACTLY. You made my point. If you love your wife, you do what is right, you don't do it out of mere obligation to the rules. Likewise, If you love the Lord, you do what is right. You don't do it as a matter of following some list. His laws are written in our hearts now, as believers.

Yes, the law is for criminals and lawbreakers. With believers, we are to do right out of love for the Lord, not because of some rule we must follow or else. That's my entire point. That does not at all mean you act contrary the Word of God and it's all good. You are known by your actions and your words.

No one will stop him from sleeping with another woman with his wife in the house (ew). But that's not out of love for his wife. That's out of self-love. Be honest about that, as you were about your own situation at the party.

It isn't following the "rules". It's following LOVE to do the right thing, and put his wife above his wants for this short time left.

You say it's about love, not rules, yet you keep referring to the rules.

What do you think this particular rule is all about? What's the point of it?

 

[holo]

You then resort to the relative privation fallacy, arguing that adultery is "not as bad as throwing her in a home", in an attempt to negate the significance of adultery. Not logical.

Jesus had plenty to say about marriage so it must have been pretty important to Him.

No, I'm pointing out that Christians will be more accepting of him being a bad husband in every way except "adultery". He could be emotionally distant for the entire marriage, and at most you'd have people say it's too bad. Nobody would be crying about sin.

Yes, Jesus had something to say about marriage - to the Jews he was instructing in matters of the law. I don't know if the OP is a Jew and considers himself to be under the law, but even if he does, Jesus had a lot to say about keeping the commandments and not really knowing the point of them. Again, doing the right thing isn't synonymous with following the rules.

We can make it really simple: how is he hurting his wife, who doesn't even know who he is anymore, by having some sort of affair with another woman?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

No, I'm pointing out that Christians will be more accepting of him being a bad husband in every way except "adultery". He could be emotionally distant for the entire marriage, and at most you'd have people say it's too bad. Nobody would be crying about sin.

Yes, Jesus had something to say about marriage - to the Jews he was instructing in matters of the law. I don't know if the OP is a Jew and considers himself to be under the law, but even if he does, Jesus had a lot to say about keeping the commandments and not really knowing the point of them. Again, doing the right thing isn't synonymous with following the rules.

We can make it really simple: how is he hurting his wife, who doesn't even know who he is anymore, by having some sort of affair with another woman?

You are still arguing the same fallacy. And you are speculating. It is simply false that "Christians will be more accepting of him being a bad husband" except for adultery. Being a bad husband is always bad. Sin is sin. Period. Who cares what "Christians" think - what one should be concerned about (who claims the name of Christ) is what GOD thinks. Find out in His Word. He gave us some instructions and principles.

And no, Jesus was not only talking to the Jews. He was talking about obeying the Spirit and doing the right thing because you love God, not because of some external pressure.

Dishonoring your wedding vows is not acceptable merely because the other person doesn't know about it. It is still dishonor. It is still sin. If you love God, you obey what He said because you want to do right, not because someone is forcing you to do so. Jesus made that very clear.

Goodness, do you remember that he said she is 7 years into what was anticipated to be around 8 years? The better question is what's the rush? He can't wait and must have this sexual relationship right now while she lingers? Really?

In a practical sense, I would think he would be too exhausted to even think about this because I've been a caregiver. I basically fell in bed at night. But that's just an aside.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

You say it's about love, not rules, yet you keep referring to the rules.

What do you think this particular rule is all about? What's the point of it?

Honoring your marriage vows (to forsake all others so long as you both shall live) IS love. Goodness...Don't marry anyone who thinks they are just rules, or worse, suggestions.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Quoting a bunch of scripture doesn't do a thing for my wife or me. Thanks anyway.

I see that quite clearly. That is terribly sad that you don't care what the Word of God has to say, having stated you had a Master's of Divinity, if I recall correctly. At one time, perhaps you cared. I hope you care again.

 

[holo]

You are still arguing the same fallacy. And you are speculating. It is simply false that "Christians will be more accepting of him being a bad husband" except for adultery. Being a bad husband is always bad. Sin is sin. Period. Who cares what "Christians" think - what one should be concerned about (who claims the name of Christ) is what GOD thinks. Find out in His Word. He gave us some instructions and principles.

And no, Jesus was not only talking to the Jews. He was talking about obeying the Spirit and doing the right thing because you love God, not because of some external pressure.

Dishonoring your wedding vows is not acceptable merely because the other person doesn't know about it. It is still dishonor. It is still sin. If you love God, you obey what He said because you want to do right, not because someone is forcing you to do so. Jesus made that very clear.

Goodness, do you remember that he said she is 7 years into what was anticipated to be around 8 years? The better question is what's the rush? He can't wait and must have this sexual relationship right now while she lingers? Really?

In a practical sense, I would think he would be too exhausted to even think about this because I've been a caregiver. I basically fell in bed at night. But that's just an aside.

I disagree about who Jesus was taking to. The way I see it, it's pretty clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, in his own words. But there's no point trying to take that whole discussion here, but it can be an example of how the bible certainly isn't at clear cut as people often think. To me it's obvious that Jesus is instructing the Jews/his disciples, and to you it's just as obvious that he's taking to you and me.

To me, even biblically speaking, doing the right thing isn't a matter of following rules. It's not how a healthy marriage works either. It's not like since I love my wife I consult some list of commandments or instructions in order to show my love. No, I get to know her personally, and so showing her love in a way she can see and appreciate becomes second nature. Not because I know the rules, but because I know HER. And that's what I think was Jesus' message to the Jews as well, and in any case a believer today isn't under the law (but again I know we disagree on that).

You ask why he can't wait. My question is why should he? If it's not simply to comply with a religious rule, I really don't see the damage other than a lot of Christians judging him, but I'm not sure that's a good reason for doing anything.

 

[holo]

Honoring your marriage vows (to forsake all others so long as you both shall live) IS love. Goodness...Don't marry anyone who thinks they are just rules, or worse, suggestions.

Personally, I would never want my wife to stay single or celibate if I were lost in irretrievable dementia. It's not a love I would be able to even perceive, its only function would be to make her miserable and keep her wonderful companionship from others who could be blessed by it.

I mean I understand that people have different ways of expressing love, and if keeping vows is your "love language" then by all means. But in a situation like this it's kind of like doing something because your dead father would've liked it: it's a nice gesture, but it's not like he'll get to appreciate it, and ultimately it's really only about serving your own sense of doing The Right Thing.

 

[holo]

I see that quite clearly. That is terribly sad that you don't care what the Word of God has to say, having stated you had a Master's of Divinity, if I recall correctly. At one time, perhaps you cared. I hope you care again.

I wonder if you can see how incredibly condescending this looks.

He says you quoting Bible verses doesn't help, and your response is that it's sad he doesn't care about what God has to say. In other words, you know what God has to say, not only generally, but to him in this specific situation, and if he doesn't agree with that he doesn't agree with God himself.

If I'm understanding you right. I hope not.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I wonder if you can see how incredibly condescending this looks.

He says you quoting Bible verses doesn't help, and your response is that it's sad he doesn't care about what God has to say. In other words, you know what God has to say, not only generally, but to him in this specific situation, and if he doesn't agree with that he doesn't agree with God himself.

If I'm understanding you right. I hope not.

I find it incredibly sad, really. You could not be more incorrect that I feel any condescension toward this poster. Not at all. He is in a tough spot.

He can find what God has to say on the issue just as easily - I'm not the only one who can seek this out in the scriptures. But he has made up his mind that he does not care.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Personally, I would never want my wife to stay single or celibate if I were lost in irretrievable dementia. It's not a love I would be able to even perceive, its only function would be to make her miserable and keep her wonderful companionship from others who could be blessed by it.

I mean I understand that people have different ways of expressing love, and if keeping vows is your "love language" then by all means. But in a situation like this it's kind of like doing something because your dead father would've liked it: it's a nice gesture, but it's not like he'll get to appreciate it, and ultimately it's really only about serving your own sense of doing The Right Thing.

She isn't dead. His wife is still alive.

 

[Tinker Grey]

She isn't dead. His wife is still alive.

The person he married is dead.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

[QUOTE="holo, post: 73456249, member: 21467"It's not like since I love my wife I consult some list of commandments or instructions in order to show my love. No, I get to know her personally, and so showing her love in a way she can see and appreciate becomes second nature. Not because I know the rules, but because I know HER. And that's what I think was Jesus' message to the Jews as well, and in any case a believer today isn't under the law (but again I know we disagree on that).

You ask why he can't wait. My question is why should he? If it's not simply to comply with a religious rule, I really don't see the damage other than a lot of Christians judging him, but I'm not sure that's a good reason for doing anything.[/QUOTE]
Right. Exactly. And as a believer, you do what the Lord wants you to do because you know Him and because you love Him, not because there are "rules to follow". That's a misunderstanding of what the relationship is. He didn't just tell some people and hand it down, so we are relying only on stories passed down. We have the Holy Scriptures today from which to glean our moral principles. This didn't used to be a problem, not so long ago. Even if people weren't necessarily living them, we still basically agreed on what was right and wrong. Today, as foretold, that moral understanding that we once held in common is crumbling.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The person he married is dead.

No, she's alive. She's in there, even if she is trapped. When she is gone, there will be a funeral. Then he will be free to pursue a relationship with the new woman. Actually caregiver and patient's family member relationships happen a lot. All well and good, so long as they are honorable.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

This site is full of people who quote scripture and tell other people what to do in impossible situations that they themselves are not experiencing.

From their legalistic viewpoint I would assume they wouldn’t object to you marrying the new woman an hour or so after your wife’s death because you are meeting the letter of the law, so to speak.

I understand in part what you are experiencing. Seven years ago my father was a respected doctor with a large practice. Today he’s basically a toddler who watches the same cowboy movie over and over again due to Alzheimer’s disease. He doesn’t recognize any of his grandkids and can’t control his bodily functions. It’s a cruel disease that takes away as much from the family as the individual because it is slow and unrelenting.

I say enjoy your new partner. Where it leads, God will show you. You still love your wife and would change the situation if you could. You are doing the right thing all around.

God bless you and stay strong.

Been there, done that. I've been a caregiver, FYI. I am telling no one what to do.

I just could not remain silent as I watched person after person say it was all right to commit adultery (not just enjoy friendship, which is fine) just so long as he continued to take care of his wife. No one is telling him what to do or will stop whatever he is doing, but it's wrong to see this coming from those who purport to be in Christ and just remain silent.

Perhaps I am casting pearls. But I thought it was a conversation worth having. If you do not, that's ok.

 

[Tinker Grey]

No, she's alive. She's in there, even if she is trapped. When she is gone, there will be a funeral. Then he will be free to pursue a relationship with the new woman. Actually caregiver and patient's family member relationships happen a lot. All well and good, so long as they are honorable.

She's not trapped. The person is not trying to get out. It's gone. The brain function that made her the person that the OP married is gone. She's gone. What remains, while I think the OP owes some responsibility, is not the person he married.

 

[Go Braves]

Sorry to hear that, that would be so rough. Can't really give much advice, will pray tho.

 

[holo]

Right. Exactly. And as a believer, you do what the Lord wants you to do because you know Him and because you love Him, not because there are "rules to follow". That's a misunderstanding of what the relationship is. He didn't just tell some people and hand it down, so we are relying only on stories passed down. We have the Holy Scriptures today from which to glean our moral principles. This didn't used to be a problem, not so long ago. Even if people weren't necessarily living them, we still basically agreed on what was right and wrong. Today, as foretold, that moral understanding that we once held in common is crumbling.

But you keep referring to this rule and not considering the situation. The rule may be good, but the thing is, be could go and be with another woman literally as soon as his wife is dead, and no Christian could accuse him of sinning. Because he followed the RULE. And that's what matters, that's what Jesus wants, that was Jesus' concern.

Morals have changed, we can agree on that. I for one am very grateful for that. It's no longer considered moral to have slaves, to force people to get married, to lynch criminals, etc etc. People would usually find a way to justify such things with bible verses, so stating that the bible has foretold moral change means nothing.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

But you keep referring to this rule and not considering the situation. The rule may be good, but the thing is, be could go and be with another woman literally as soon as his wife is dead, and no Christian could accuse him of sinning. Because he followed the RULE. And that's what matters, that's what Jesus wants, that was Jesus' concern.

Morals have changed, we can agree on that. I for one am very grateful for that. It's no longer considered moral to have slaves, to force people to get married, to lynch criminals, etc etc. People would usually find a way to justify such things with bible verses, so stating that the bible has foretold moral change means nothing.

You are correct insofar as appearances go, if that were the plumb line. It is indeed possible to grudgingly wait until his wife passes and then move on to the new relationship, and no one would think anything of it. He would be free to do so then. It doesn't matter what people think anyway. The Lord looks at the heart, not external appearances. Once he decided to move on anyway, he crossed a boundary that he was not free to cross, as a believer (which he said he was, but simultaneously says the Word of God does not matter to him).

The issue is that he has (according to his posts) set aside the boundary and moved on into an "intimate" relationship both mentally (first) and then physically before he is free to do so, according to the Lord Himself. Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

No one is going to stop him. Most of the world and apparently half of those inside the church applaud this move as "not as bad as" some other choice he could make. But he is not free, as he is one flesh with his wife so long as she lives. And she lives.