One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[Strong in Him]

Saturday is simply a special day when you pay extra atenttion.

You might.
I believe that all days belong to the Lord; partly because he created them and partly because if we proclaim him Lord, this is what it means - he is Lord all the time, of everything.
Scripture says, "whatever you do work at it with your whole heart as working for the Lord", Colossians 3:23, and "whatever you do, do it all in the name of the Lord", Colossians 3:17. So in all our work - and relaxing, reading, eating, following hobbies etc, we are doing all things for the Lord.
Personally, I also worship God every day. So the concept of having a special day for God, doesn't sound right.

I used the metaphor of a family dinner. even if you spent all day talking to your family, a family dinner is not a place to be listening to music, or be taking on your phone or worried about work, but rather a place to enjoy community and rest, to tell your family about whats on your mind, rest from everything, enjoy a methaphorical good meal

If I spent 12 hours a day talking to my family, the last thing I'd want would be a family meal where I sat down and talked some more. I'd want peace and quiet; time with my own thoughts and prayers - in fact I might not want a meal with them at all. And whether or not you can even talk to your family, never mind share what's on your mind and how you really feel, depends on the relationship you have with them.

 

[bekkilyn]

um no.... historically the gathering occurred during the sabbath, while its true the bible mentions reunions during the first day, its also important to mention that the apostles and many followers lived together, so really a dinner together would be pretty common, not a worship service...

Why do you consider Murder evil, but not sabbath breaking?
I derive my morals from God, not from cultural aspects, and whereas i still find murder worse than working on a saturday, i still know that its as much of a sin, since all sins are equal to God.

If you start deriving your morals from culture, then, premarital sex becomes ok, and so abortions and many other things

and if you derive your morals from the bible, breaking the sabbath is no less sinful than lying or adultery

Morals from "the bible" and morals from God are two different things, though there may be some overlap. You should not limit God to a set of laws written in stone for a particular people for a particular purpose that has since been fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is who convicts of sin under the new covenant. Follow *his* lead and you won't go astray.

Jesus needs to be the center of our faith, not lawmaking.

 

[bekkilyn]

all good... why then Jesus says that EVERYONE on Judea should flee, and pray that that flight might not be during the sabbath?
again, i let the bible inform my worldview, not the other way. Jesus talks about all of judea, not only the Jews

If an invading army is coming into your city, region, country, etc., are they going to stand around trying to decide who is who? So everyone flees, but only those who are concerned with sabbath-keeping need worry about that invasion happening on the sabbath because they are either going to break the old covenant sabbath by traveling on the sabbath, or they are likely to be cut down, enslaved, etc. by the invading army. So *they* pray it doesn't happen on the sabbath.

Just because new covenant Christians aren't obligated to keep the laws of the old covenant doesn't mean that Jews just suddenly drop everything in their culture or that which makes them distinct as a people the moment they convert to Christianity. Being a Jew is both cultural and religious. Gentiles were a whole different matter.

 

[bekkilyn]

furthermore, if you go to any archive, you'll find that the catholic church, by its on power moved the sabbath, and recognizes that nowhere in scripture it says we should not keep the sabbath... and why are you even against it? its a day of rest, ordained as such by God in the very creation, and that it has been a mark of God's people


oh... almsot forgot, note how everyone living in israel kept the sabbath, not only jews? i dont recall God ordering non jews to give sacrifice, or to go to the temple, rather, the sabbath rule says that everyone, man or animal, jew or foreigner that its in your land, shall keep the sabbath, and the bible says that even in heaven the sabbath remains as a focal point of the week

The Catholic Church did not move the sabbath to Sunday. This has historically been proven to be false based on numerous historical writings that clearly show that Christians were assembling for worship on Sunday for centuries before both Constantine and the Catholic Church.

Everyone living in Israel *under an Israelite king* did keep the sabbath as well as all other Mosaic laws because they were a theocratic nation ruled by a king of their own people. Once they were invaded and ruled by Assyria, Babylon, etc., non-Jewish people were under no obligation because they were not ruled by Israel.

The old covenant sabbath was a sign of the covenant God made with the nation of Israel at Sinai...a mark for *those* people and not for everyone else.

 

[liberty of conscience]

I think you mean serving others in humility.

No, I mean exactly what Jesus commanded, footwashing. Do you do this? If not, you do not follow what Jesus explicitly commanded, and whatever else you do is simply self-righteousness, doing your own thing.

Here is the commandment, even associated with the Lord's supper:

Joh_13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

So, I will ask again. I hear you say, "Lord, lord" but do you do what He said to do?

Do you (personally) do what Jesus commanded specifically in regards washing the feet of the other disciples, yes/no? If no, what is your excuse?

 

[liberty of conscience]

...
Here are some commandments from the text.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 Thessalonians 4:2-3
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.

1 Thessalonians 4:10-11
But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1 Timothy 6:11-14
But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, all of those are found in the OT also. See Genesis 3:15. Did Adam have to believe in the "Lamb"? Did Enoch "walk with God (Jesus)"? Did Noah find "grace" in the eyes of the Lord? Did Abraham keep the commandments and laws of God?

Did Seth "call upon the name of the LORD" (Genesis 4:26)?

You misunderstand the word "new". It is "kainos", not "neos". It is not 'new' in regards time, as if it had never been given before. It existed from the beginning, and the meaning of the commandment had been lost, thus Jesus had to give the example.

The commandment is "love", which is what the Ten Commandments explicitly spell out in detail, for love to God and man, as noted in Deuteronomy 6:1-5 and Leviticus 19:17-18 (in the context of Deuteronomy 5, the Ten Commandments, the written character of God, who is unchanging Love). It was from the beginning, God existed from eternity.

John 14:15; Exodus 20:6. You can ignore this if you want, but you are without excuses (though you make many).

Do you want to look at the context of the verses you cited, yes/no?

 

[liberty of conscience]

...
Thou shall love your brothers and thou shall also love your enemies.

Thou shall pray for those who persecute you.

Thou shall turn the other cheek when required.

Thou shall make no vows by heaven or earth.

Thou shall only divorce on the basis of unchastity.

Thou shall not marry a divorced women if her husband is still alive, that is adultery.

Thou shall not lust in your thought life, that is fornication.

Thou shall reconcile with your brother before presenting an offering at the altar.

Thou shall not call someone a fool.

Thou shall acquire a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees.

Thou shall endure to the end, always believing in Jesus.

Thou shall not get drunk.

Thou shall not speak poorly about others, thou will be judged by your words.

Thou shall not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, that sin will never be forgiven.

Thou shall be humble.

Thou shall bind the strong man.

Thou shall not scatter, thou will in fact gather with me.

Thou shall shine your light before men.

Thou shall not worry about tomorrow.

Thou shall not worry about your own life.

Thou shall not serve money and God.

Thou shall not store treasure on earth, thou shall store treasure in heaven.

Thou shall not wear a gloomy face when fasting.

Thou shall forgive others otherwise thou will not be forgiven.

Thou shall not use repetition in prayer.

Thou shall pray in secret, in the inner room.

Thou shall not sound a trumpet when giving to the poor.

Thou shall not practise righteousness before men.

Thou shall not judge others lest thou be judged by that same measure.

Thou shall not give what is holy to the dogs.

Thou shall love as Jesus has loved you.

Thou shall focus on things above and not on earthly things.

Thou shall place others first at all times.

Thou shall rejoice at all times.

Thou shall be thankful at all times.

Thou shall seek the greater gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Thou shall not forbid prophecy.

Thou shall be Holy as your heavenly Father is Holy.

Thou shall enter through the narrow gate.

Thou shall beware the false prophet.

Thou shall do the will of the Father.
Thou shall act on these words of mine.
Thou shall follow me and allow the dead to bury their own dead.
Thou shall not pour new wine into old wineskins.
Thou shall beseech the Lord to send workers into the harvest.
Thou shall bless others and not curse others.
Thou shall pray in the Spirit always.
Thou shall be baptized in water for forgiveness.
Thou shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Thou shall not work for earthly bread but thou will work for the heavenly bread.
Thou shall give, and it will be given to you.

All of which are found rooted in the OT texts which is where Jesus and the apostles were quoting directly from.

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished (Sanctuary language) unto all good works.

For instance the Sermon on the Mount is actually the exposition of how to live out the Ten Commandments. It cites from many places, such as Psalms 37, for instance.

But, instead, you attempt to make this false dichotomy between (Genesis to Malachi) and (Matthew to Revelation).

 

[liberty of conscience]

...A covenant centered on Jesus Christ, His blood for the forgiveness of sins. The goal of the shadow law, i.e., love; is written into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Of course the 'New' (Everlasting/Eternal) Covenant is centered on Jesus Christ, since it was made between Father and Son, in eternity, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, and ratified by the blood of Jesus shed at Calvary and his death, and ratified by the Father in Heaven upon Jesus' ascension. I gave you those texts already.

Did you know that at the heart of the Ten Commandments is the name of God, the Creator (thus Redeemer)? The Ten Commandments are the promises of God to usward. All of them. They are His "I will" ... (Psalms 40:8, Jeremiah 31:33), etc.

The Law of God (Ten Commandments) are never "shadow" in all of scripture (and you cannot produce one text that says otherwise), they are always and eternally have been, and will be, "light":

Pro_6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

As I said before, you are in gross error in understanding of Colossians 2, and because you have wrested it so, it will destroy you, if you do not repent of it. Peter warned you. You are without excuse (though you make many). Peter and Paul will rise in the judgment and condemn all such abuse of the words they have written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and for refusal to repent and obey God in His commandments, when they and others were so clear. Romans 6:1,15, 7:7; Hebrews 12:4; 1 Peter 2:22, 4:1; 1 John 3:4, etc, etc.

The Holy Ghost writes the "my (God's) Law" (Ten Commandments, context; Jeremiah 31:33) upon the heart.

Here is what the Holy Ghost writes:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The Holy Ghost speaks that which He hears. The same Holy Ghost that wrote the Law of God on tables of stone, is to write that same Law upon the heart (the tables of the mind, the two hemispheres of the mind), as per texts already cited, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, 2 Corinthains, Hebrews, etc.

Otherwise, you have a differing law from another spirit, under another gospel.

 

[liberty of conscience]

The Catholic Church did not move the sabbath to Sunday. This has historically been proven to be false based on numerous historical writings ...

*Ahem* - One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

It is not baseless. It is that a person amongst us, is simply ignorant of the sources/claims for it. I will let all decide who that person is after this response.

They say that they did.

See:

"... Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week.

For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact (1). Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday ..."

(1.) The Catholic Record of London, Saturday, September 1st, 1923 edition, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342, appearing on page 4, section "Sabbath Observance", Column 2, -- Editor -- Rev. James T. Foley, D.D. ... The CATHOLIC RECORD has been approved and recommended by Archbishops Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Ogdensburg, N.Y., and the Clergy throughout the Dominion.", Column 1 - The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.

http://biblelight.net/Sources/Catholic-Record-6-shade.gif

Another:

Latin:

"... Similiter et feriae a fando dicuntur, ob quam causam Silvester papa primus apud Romanos constituit ut dierum nomina quae antea secundum nomina deorum suorum vocabant, id est, Solis, Lunae, Martis, Mercurii, Veneris, Saturni, feria deinceps vocarent, id est, prima feria, secunda feria, tertia feria, quarta feria, quinta feria, sexta feria, quia in principio Genesis scriptum est quod Deus per singulos dies dixerit : prima, Fiat Lux; secunda, Fiat firmamentum; tertia, Producat terra herbam virentem, similiter, etc. Sabbatum autem antiquo legis vocabulo vocare praecepit, et primam feriam diem Dominicam, eo quod Dominus in illa resurrexit. Statuit autem idem papa ut otium sabbati magis in diem Dominicam transferretur, ut ea die a terrenis operibus ad laudandum Deum vacaremus, justa illud quod scriptum est : Vacate et videte, quoniam ego sum Deus (Psal. XLV). ..." - Beati Rabani Mauri, Fuldensis Abbatis et Moguntini Archiepiscopi, de Clericorum Institutione, ad Heistulphum Archiepiscopum; Libri Tres. (Anno 819.) Ad Fratres Fuldenses Epigramma Ejusdem; Liber Secundus, Caput XLVI. Column 361 (Left; PDF page 35) - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....eistulphum_Archiepiscopum_Libri_Tres,_MLT.pdf

"... The decree by Pope Sylvester I to call the days of the week feria was issued in the year 316 A.D. according to Medii ævi Kalendarium Or, Dates, Charters, and Customs of the Middle Ages, Volume Two, by Robert Thomas Hampson, published in London by H. K. Causten, 1841, entry on Day, page 66, and Feria, pages 137, 138. ..." - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

"... Pope Sylvester I (also Silvester, died 31 December 335), was Pope of the Catholic Church from 314 to his death in 335. ..." - Pope Sylvester I - Wikipedia

Translated English (of the Latin above):

"... Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7 ..." - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

Further:

“...yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. … From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Sunday] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

“... Jesus exercised his sovereign power to abrogate the sabbath law in at least some way. … The sabbath command is the only one of the Ten Commandments which can be altered in any way, because only it is a part of the ceremonial law. This is taught by the Roman Catechism issued after the Council of Trent:

The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the sabbath was kept holy only from the time of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh.

The observance of the sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. . . .” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Quick Questions (1994)] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Quick Questions (1994)

“... Today Jews and other groups who keep the sabbath, such as the Seventh-Day Adventists, continue to celebrate it from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. This way of reckoning time was not the only one in the ancient world. For example, the Romans reckoned days from midnight to midnight--the system we use today. … Sunday is often spoken of as "the Christian sabbath," but this is not a technical description. Sunday is not a strict replacement for the sabbath (which has been abolished), but a day the Church instituted to fulfill a parallel function. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Quick Questions (1994)] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Quick Questions (1994)

“...With regard to the exposition of this commandment, the faithful are to be carefully taught in what it accords with, and in what it differs from the others, in order that they may understand why Christians observe not the Sabbath, but the Lord's day. … all the commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians … whereas this commandment, if considered as to the time of its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but is susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral but ceremonial Law. … ” [The Catechism of the Council of Trent published by command of Pope Pius The Fifth, translated into English by the Rev. J. Donovon, Professor, &c Royal College, Maynooth; Baltimore: Published by Lucas Brothers. No. 170 Market Street; Printed By James Young, Baltimore; On The Third Commandment; pg 264] - The catechism of the Council of Trent

“...But the Church of God [Roman Catholic church] has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to “the Lord's day:” …” [The Catechism of the Council of Trent; On The Third Commandment; pg 267] - The catechism of the Council of Trent

The catechism of the Council of Trent : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

“...Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. ...” [The Faith Of Our Fathers “Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ” By James Cardinal Gibbons; Archbishop of Baltimore, Ninety-third Carefully Revised and Enlarged Edition; John Murphy Company; Publishers; Baltimore, MD. New York; R. & T. Washbourne, Ltd.; 10 Paternoster Row, London, and at Manchester.; Birmingham and Glascow; 1917; Chapter VIII [8]. The Church And The Bible; Online Pg 97, also side notation pagination as [089]] - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf



That is only one record, of a specific 'catholic' (not Christian) 'synod' in the mid 300's (circa 363, the 4th Cent.).

"... The Laodicea at which the Synod met is Laodicea in Phrygia Pacatiana, also called Laodicea ad Lycum, and to be carefully distinguished from the Laodicea in Syria. ..." - CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

"... The Council of Laodicea was a regional synod of approximately thirty clerics from Asia Minor that assembled about 363–364 AD in Laodicea, Phrygia Pacatiana. ..." - Council of Laodicea - Wikipedia

It was in 'turkey'. True, yet if you consider the material in those 'canons', you will see that their decisions were based upon things that already existed previously.



Do you know why 'canon XXIX' was made?

Canon 16 'XVI' (Laodicea):

"The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures.

... Neander (Kirchengesch., 2d ed., vol. iij., p. 565 et seq.) suggests ... that it was the custom in many parts of the ancient Church to keep every Saturday as a feast in commemoration of the Creation. ...

... Among the Greeks the Sabbath was kept ..." - CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

The 'pope' of Rome (there were other 'popes'), didn't have to be at Laodicea as Sylvester I had already issued a statement on the thing before this 'synod'.



True. So?



You just stretched the evidence you gave beyond what it gives.



I saw how the source you used was stretched to support your a priori.

Yet, see the evidence I provided is against your stretching?



Done.

Go ahead. Please explicitly produce your 'historical' material (with citations and direct links where possible) which contradicts the actual historical material I did really cite above.

The whole 'the early church kept sunday as a holy day' (ie Apostles even unto the close of Revelation) is easily proven to be empty air and vain boasting without any evidence whatsoever, beginning with scripture itself, and moving into the fraud committed by later persons.
Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

 

[bekkilyn]

*Ahem* - One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP



Go ahead. Please explicitly produce your 'historical' material (with citations and direct links where possible) which contradicts the actual historical material I did really cite above.

The whole 'the early church kept sunday as a holy day' (ie Apostles even unto the close of Revelation) is easily proven to be empty air and vain boasting without any evidence whatsoever, beginning with scripture itself, and moving into the fraud committed by later persons.
Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

A good bit of what you seek is stated in the new testament itself, but you could also look up Justin Martyr as a start. Could try Tertullian as well if you're actually interested rather than just arguing.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, and not on the sabbath, and it's the event of the resurrection that is central to our faith, and what Christians have been celebrating since the beginning of "the Way" and not sabbath keeping.

The argument of the "Sunday fraud" link that you posted is to oppose a view that Christians *never* worshiped on the seventh day sabbath, and yet in practically all of them, the primary day of worship is still the first day of week and then sometimes they might do something on the Jewish sabbath as well. It's no proof of your claim that Christians weren't assembling for worship on the first day of the week long before Constantine and the Catholic Church. Well you know, we are to worship *every* day of the week, so many churches have a lot going on on other days as well.

 

[Dkh587]

I do have a slight mobility issue, but I can't get a job. Or at least, not a job in the area I believe the Lord is calling me to.

As I had M.E. for 18 years and couldn't work, my CV is no doubt disastrous. Despite that, I've been shortlisted several times and been told I have a lot to offer - apparently not enough for anyone to offer me a job, however.

Surely there is a job out there for you. God wants us to work but also rest from our labors. He definitely does not want us to be idle - even the Apostles commanded that we use our hands to make a living, to the extent we are able to work. Even Jesus worked.

I have learned that our past circumstances do not matter - with faith + God on our side, we can do anything, including getting a job, especially a job where we are able to rest on the 7th day.

 

[Dkh587]

A good bit of what you seek is stated in the new testament itself, but you could also look up Justin Martyr as a start. Could try Tertullian as well if you're actually interested rather than just arguing.

Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, and not on the sabbath, and it's the event of the resurrection that is central to our faith, and what Christians have been celebrating since the beginning of "the Way" and not sabbath keeping.

The argument of the "Sunday fraud" link that you posted is to oppose a view that Christians *never* worshiped on the seventh day sabbath, and yet in practically all of them, the primary day of worship is still the first day of week and then sometimes they might do something on the Jewish sabbath as well. It's no proof of your claim that Christians weren't assembling for worship on the first day of the week long before Constantine and the Catholic Church. Well you know, we are to worship *every* day of the week, so many churches have a lot going on on other days as well.

To be technical, the Sabbath is not “the day of worship”. The Sabbath is the day we are commanded to rest and cease from work.

We are to worship all 7 days of the week, but we are only commanded to rest on 1 day of the week: the 7th day.

 

[bekkilyn]

To be technical, the Sabbath is not “the day of worship”. The Sabbath is the day we are commanded to rest and cease from work.

We are to worship all 7 days of the week, but we are only commanded to rest on 1 day of the week: the 7th day.

While I don't agree that new covenant Christians are obligated to observe old covenant sabbath as a day of the week, I *do* agree that the first day of the week is not the same as the seventh day sabbath. Christians are celebrating the day of the Lord's resurrection on the first day of the week, not observing the sabbath. The argument from people in this thread is that Constantine/Roman Catholic Church moved the sabbath to the first day of the week and that's simply not true. The old covenant sabbath has always been on the seventh day of the week and still is today.

 

[ace of hearts]

Jesus is by nature, Deity, God; John 1. Jesus, is identified by Hosea, & Matthew, as the true Israel.

Act_7:38 This is he, that was in the church (εκκλησια) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Jesus was the one who led them who came out of Egypt through the wilderness.

News to me. Would you mind posting some specific passages? The verse you posted doesn't mean Jesus was on the scene at Mount Sinai. When Jesus came the law was over. Gal 3:19. Moses brought the law, not Jesus. Jn 1:17. I didn't God didn't give the law to Israel through Moses.

The last sentence should read I didn't say the law was given by Jesus; the law was given by God the Father thru Moses to Israel. Jn 1:17 confirms this as fact if it's the Scripture inspired by God the Father. Hope that makes it understandable. Have to be more careful. Sorry for the blunder.

 

[gordonhooker]

Jesus, when speaking to a mixed crowd of gentiles and Jews, speaking about the destruction of the temple that would come (now we know it was almost 40 years later in AD 71), said in Matthew 24:20:
"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day"
Why would Jesus say that? of course the winter one is obvious, winter in the desert is deadly, but why the sabbath if gentiles and jews were pressent and the sabbath was meant to pass away?

well, it wasnt meant to pass away. We can see this in the fact that the apostles and the early church kept the sabbath, even in mainly or even exclusively gentile congregations up to the 4th century AD, quite a missundertanding by the part of the apostles if the sabbath was meant to pass away!!


Also, keep in mind one thing.. everything that was just "a symbol" was for only us, God didnt offer sacrifices, God didnt burn rams or bulls, God didnt wash his hands, but us, humans... Yet God rested in the garden....


Finally.. sunday worship and moving the rest day didnt come until rome and the church as the entity known as the catholic church and by their power, so it isnt really a bible teching..

I dont know, the fact that those who learned first hand tought to keep the sabbath, and the fact that the early church kept it, the fact that sunday was brought about by a church with a trackrecord of using its leadership as another source of doctrine is kinda shady...

Because Matthew's Gospel is directed to a Jewish audience and as Jesus was also a Jew he, Matthew and Matthew's audience would have followed the Jewish tradition. Jesus had not died and been resurrected so celebration his resurrection would not even be on the agenda at that time.

Remember when reading any scripture you should always follow the Law of the Three 'C's' context, context and context....

 

[ace of hearts]

A few helpful texts, John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Hebrews 3-4; Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16 and the book of Acts, see Acts 4:24, 14:15-16, 17:30.

None of which support your claim.

 

[ace of hearts]

May I ask, who specifically "told" this thing to you, and what was their background?

For me it was and still is the Scripture. I know you want people to say some religious teaching.

 

[ace of hearts]

According to Romans 3:31; Jeremiah 31:33, the Ten Commandments are not the old covenant.

What text/s do you refer to? I know of no text in scripture which teaches that the Ten Commandments are the old covenant.

What covenant was given to their fathers the day God took them out of Egypt?

 

[ace of hearts]

The Holy Spirit speaks to believer and unbeliever. It is only through the Hoy Spirit that we come to Jesus at all. I am saying what the bible says--
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Christians can get very good at ignoring the calling of the Holy Spirit. Happens a lot, often over little things--the Spirit will tell you to not do something or d something and we ignore. That is what the Mormons have done--ignored the warnings---God will not force anyone to do anything. Christians who think they are following Christ can be I for a big surprise.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Build Your House on the Rock
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
This is not going to be said to unbelievers---this is going to be said to obvious believers for they wee doing all this in His name. You can not just hear--you also have to do.

Verse 24 is a great verse. I take the "sayings of mine are those" of Jesus.

 

[ace of hearts]

That is the covenant that would be replaced--which Jesus did at the cross. The 10 are not part of that covenant.

Not what Moses said was the covenant. Not what Jeremiah referred to as the covenant.