I need some advice please

[StillGods]

I do believe that there is one true church, as it was claimed in the singular by Jesus Christ, "I will build My church", and as supported by scriptures like Eph 4:4-6 among others. When one obeys the gospel as outlined in the NT, Christ adds them to His church. Any assembly of Christians converted thus and who are practicing the Christian religion as outlined in the NT both in worship and daily living, is a congregation of the one true church.

is that called the COC?

 

[112358]

Good point, so there is no one true church (meaning denomination) today that bases all of their doctrines and practices on the early church because the early church was a group of churches that had various practices....

I'm not sure I would say that Christ claimed all of them, unless they repent. Which is kind of an illustration of my point I think. He did not consider them part of His any longer.

 

[Deborah D]

I do believe that there is one true church, as it was claimed in the singular by Jesus Christ, "I will build My church", and as supported by scriptures like Eph 4:4-6 among others. When one obeys the gospel as outlined in the NT, Christ adds them to His church. Any assembly of Christians converted thus and who are practicing the Christian religion as outlined in the NT both in worship and daily living, is a congregation of the one true church.

I don't mean to be a bother, but you kind of skirted my question. I'm just wondering if you consider your denomination to be the only one that is "practicing the Christian religion as outlined in the NT."

 

[corinth77777]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

Hi, first you may want to ask what is salvation. It means deliver..or protect, refuge.
And one can be delivered from many things.
My personal belief from 1 Peter 3;21 is that
Salvation is Christ's life

And one put into Christ is saved from passed trespasses and sins. As scripture says..

Yet is that the only saving that needs to be done? No for we must be saved from many different things in this life we live now.

And many scriptures are speaking of Now as we live in this world.

Well first whose faithfulness or faith are we saved by? We are saved through the faithfulness of Christ. Recall by grace are we saved through faith, but as I see it this faith is not of ourselves....why because we are given Christ's faithfulness as a gift from God.
His faithfulness is not by our works. For what He did was from love,God.

This is the Baptism that saves us now...Christ is our answer to a clear conscience before God...For I believe that He lives forever to intercede for those who come to Him. As stated in Hebrew.

Why? For We still need to be forgiven for future sins.
Recall Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. They are destroyed as we put trust in Christ.
What were the effects of His work? Sin that separated us from God. But we are brought near by the blood of Christ where we can come to receive mercy in time of need.

So while works to earn salvation cannot be done...because Jesus finished the work out of Love. Works that come from or through depend on His faithfulness are fruit of having His Spirit.
Another words we purify ourselves by works that are from having a relationship through His faithfulness, His loving forever to intercede for us if we sin.
So this is how we are being transformed to the image of His son by walking in the spirit.
And walking in the spirit is works that come out of Christ being faithful to us. These are not works where at one time seem to be the source of salvation the Law. These are works that stem from Christ's faith, or faithfulness.
These works are a result of a relationship with Christ that changes the heart. Therefore as we walk in the spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Since one then walks by the spirit, the righteous requirements of the law are met. As an example to what he says to the pharasees;to first make the inside of the cup clean that the outside may be clean as well.

 

[112358]

is that called the COC?

Yes. It's also called the church of God, the Way, the Faith, the Ekklesia, etc. It is referred to by several names throughout the NT. It is still a singular entity established and owned by Jesus Christ.

 

[StillGods]

Yes. It's also called the church of God, the Way, the Faith, the Ekklesia, etc. It is referred to by several names throughout the NT. It is still a singular entity established and owned by Jesus Christ.

so you would consider the COC to be the one true church

 

[112358]

I don't mean to be a bother, but you kind of skirted my question. I'm just wondering if you consider your denomination to be the only one that is "practicing the Christian religion as outlined in the NT."

I stand by my response. The Bible teaches that there is but one true church. I don't believe it is my place, and in this forum it is a violation of the rules anyway, to condemn anyone's belief or practice. I just try to "speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent". But for clarity the COC is not a denomination by definition. Each congregation is autonomous and reports to no governing body outside of it's local eldership, and adheres to no other governing document than the NT.

 

[Deborah D]

I stand by my response. The Bible teaches that there is but one true church. I don't believe it is my place, and in this forum it is a violation of the rules anyway, to condemn anyone's belief or practice. I just try to "speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent". But for clarity the COC is not a denomination by definition. Each congregation is autonomous and reports to no governing body outside of it's local eldership, and adheres to no other governing document than the NT.

To most Christians I know, the true church includes every believer in Jesus Christ, regardless of denominational leanings.

 

[Southernscotty]

I do believe that there is one true church, as it was claimed in the singular by Jesus Christ, "I will build My church", and as supported by scriptures like Eph 4:4-6 among others. When one obeys the gospel as outlined in the NT, Christ adds them to His church. Any assembly of Christians converted thus and who are practicing the Christian religion as outlined in the NT both in worship and daily living, is a congregation of the one true church.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Rock here is noted as a small pebble as you know, This

Hi, first you may want to ask what is salvation. It means deliver..or protect, refuge.
And one can be delivered from many things.
My personal belief from 1 Peter 3;21 is that
Salvation is Christ's life

And one put into Christ is saved from passed trespasses and sins. As scripture says..

Yet is that the only saving that needs to be done? No for we must be saved from many different things in this life we live now.

And many scriptures are speaking of Now as we live in this world.

Well first whose faithfulness or faith are we saved by? We are saved through the faithfulness of Christ. Recall by grace are we saved through faith, but as I see it this faith is not of ourselves....why because we are given Christ's faithfulness as a gift from God.
His faithfulness is not by our works. For what He did was from love,God.

This is the Baptism that saves us now...Christ is our answer to a clear conscience before God...For I believe that He lives forever to intercede for those who come to Him. As stated in Hebrew.

Why? For We still need to be forgiven for future sins.
Recall Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. They are destroyed as we put trust in Christ.
What were the effects of His work? Sin that separated us from God. But we are brought near by the blood of Christ where we can come to receive mercy in time of need.

So while works to earn salvation cannot be done...because Jesus finished the work out of Love. Works that come from or through depend on His faithfulness are fruit of having His Spirit.
Another words we purify ourselves by works that are from having a relationship through His faithfulness, His loving forever to intercede for us if we sin.
So this is how we are being transformed to the image of His son by walking in the spirit.
And walking in the spirit is works that come out of Christ being faithful to us. These are not works where at one time seem to be the source of salvation the Law. These are works that stem from Christ's faith, or faithfulness.
These works are a result of a relationship with Christ that changes the heart. Therefore as we walk in the spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Since one then walks by the spirit, the righteous requirements of the law are met. As an example to what he says to the pharasees;to first make the inside of the cup clean that the outside may be clean as well.

I believe you are referring to the act of sanctification whereas one is justified and then sanctified through trials and tribulations of this life in which we incur. The term christian means baby Christ and we put on His righteousness when we accept Him as our Saviour

 

[redleghunter]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

Frankly brother this is unhealthy debate as your friend and this Dr are preaching at you and not likely taking into consider your point of view and exegesis. Any further engagement will just create more strife which can be both mentally and physically unhealthy. So my loving advice after three visits is this:

Titus 3: NASB
10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[corinth77777]

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Rock here is noted as a small pebble as you know, This

I believe you are referring to the act of sanctification whereas one is justified and then sanctified through trials and tribulations of this life in which we incur. The term christian means baby Christ and we put on His righteousness when we accept Him as our Saviour

Purifying oneself is part of salvation as well
For...if we agree to say salvation is Christ's Life...
As we live His life as though He were us...we too have life that comes from above...continual renewal by the spirit.
For recall the passage when the righteousness of Christ appeared He did not save us by any works of righteousness we have done but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy spirit.....therefore it's all part of salvation or the salvator's life
Now what and when does the washing of regeneration save? Trespasses and past sins? If "all" includes sins of future then why repent....?
And why then if you walk in the spirit the blood cleanses us from all sin [again]

Because salvation is a life...a continual walk in Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

May I suggest that you really don't need different points of view but rather you need to know how to deal with the issue of the ongoing dispute? The reason I suggest this is because both sides can proof-text their way to their position. (Just like proof-texting your way to various other doctrines.) Look around here and you'll see people proof-texting their position on the rapture, millennialism, once saved always saved, etc. It's all so much heat and no light.

You are so correct. Not many want to do the real work of exegesis. All proof texting does is created a pretext and pit some verses against others.

What lacks is a systematic approach to Scriptures which takes into account the full revelation of God to mankind.

 

[redleghunter]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

That verse says "this is the work of God." Does not say our work.

 

[Blade]

I was wondering why TODAY this post has 8 pages.. then read.. WORKS and SALVATION

It can be hard to talk to some people. I remember friends living just next door.. Mormons..him and his wife wanted to talk about something I forgot what. So to back up what he said..he brings out all these books. And came to find out.. EVERYONE of those books were written by Mormons.

The WORD stands for its self. I notice here some quote a verse that.. one has to look up how it was org written. Its nice to chat talk about .. I don't try to debate..I have nothing to prove. When we get into "speculation".. ANYTHING can be proved.

What WAS done is not anymore.. talk.. then both get together and pray.. stay in prayer and seek the sweet sweet Holy Spirit..Seek Gods answer. I think most will just .. kindly see the others point and agree together.. hug and .. in the end.. each leaves knowing they are still right.

And this thread has taken a few turns.

 

[Yarddog]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

It's bad that a person that you consider a friend would disrespect you. Doesn't sound like a friend.

My advice is to do as I did. As soon as a subject came up to a friend who tried to challenge my faith I told them they had two choices. Shut up or leave.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Please forgive my ignorance, and perhaps my repetitiveness if this question has already been asked and answered (I can't read through the entire thread at present due to only having a small amount of time at hand) but by church of Christ do you mean all believers of Christ who therefore constitute his church, or specifically the sect / denomination the Church of Christ? And if the latter, is the Church of Christ the same as the International Church of Christ?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home.
I even told them, This is not a good time for me but they insist so I have been meeting with them here out of a loving heart because to be honest, I worry about their salvation.
I plead the Blood of Jesus as my sin atonement and they plead water as their cleansing agent.

Well brother if they claim water as their cleansing agent for the atonement for sins rather then the shed blood of Jesus Christ then I would say God is using you to shed light on their Scriptural errors.

One of my biggest frustrations is how so many people want to complicate salvation and misrepresent our Lord and Saviour.

Some people will use certain scripture to back up what they believe or what their denomination believes , but if it isn't in harmony with other Scripture and there is an obvious contradiction or misrepresents our Lord then I personally do not have time for that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God :
Not of works , lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship , created in Christ Jesus unto good works , which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them .

Amen!!!

Those awesome , marvelous, powerful verses isn't a license to sin , but rather a convicting, humbling reason to sin less as new creatures in Christ

Obviously as new creatures in Christ we will not be sinless , but definitely should sin less.
And , yes , we should absolutely do good works for the Kingdom of God and His glory.

I say this as a reminder and to encourage you to continue to witness the truth to them.
Share the gospel , but more importantly live it.

Many know about the Word of God , but many never received Him.

Good to see you back brother.

Peace and love in our Saviours name.
⚘

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Thank you and I usually don't get involved in these types debates but this one has been thrust on me and I am determined to try and understand the difference in our interpretation of scripture.
There has to be something that I am missing that will cause them to see the truth.
I am hanging in there and doing a lot of praying friend. I have so much going on in my life that I can't really think straight anyway. Lol I am looking forward to getting a bunch of stuff behind me and going somewhere on a short vacation. I have never seen the ocean, So I may try to go there and see it? :]

I don't have much to contribute at present in regards to advice, but did want to post these videos for you. I am blessed to have grown up around the corner from an amazing oceanfront park, and for years it's been a ritual for a group of friends from the neighborhood to gather there at sunset and celebrate the beauty of it in song. Whenever I'm back at home (I'm a college student) I love going there, sitting on a bench (sometimes holding my dog, which is why the video isn't always steady, ha) and taking in the loveliness of it all. The entire sky looks like an enormous canvas that God uses to create masterpieces. Watching that majestical artistry, listening to the music of friends and the ocean waves, it always calms my heart and fills me with awe and gratitude.

I hope you get to experience this in person someday soon:

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just can't see Romans 6 3,4 as water immersion, They say this is because I am indoctrinated and that is why. So I have really been studying however I still cannot make it work in my simple mind.
This is us placed spiritually in the body of Christ

Okay. I feel it is wrong for them to call you a heretic. But do not hate them over this, but love them and pray for them over them saying that to you. Hebrews 12:14 says we are to make peace with all men, of which we will not see GOD if we do not do so. We have to speak full of grace seasoned with salt. They should be talking to you in a spirit of love here. 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism is not for salvation. The words "filth of the flesh" (in 1 Peter 3:21) is similar to the word "filthiness of the flesh" in 2 Corinthians 7:1, that defines this phrase as "sin." Meaning, baptism does not save in the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (sin). This is what 1 Peter 3:21 says. It only saves as an answer of having an already clean and good conscience before GOD.

Although they are wrong in the way they are approaching you, they are correct that works also play a part in the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace). But we have to realize that these works are not of our own doing alone (Whereby we get to pat ourselves on the back and boast in ourselves). These works are the works of God done through us. Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). God lives in us, and the fruit (deeds) is the proof in the pudding that we abide in Him. Without the Lord in our life, we cannot be saved (1 John 5:12).

As for Romans 6:3-4:

I believe this is talking about water baptism but it is not in reference to salvation. Water baptism is merely a picture or symbol of our being crucified with Christ when we go down into the water (We are being buried with Him), and when we rise up out of the water (We are being risen like Christ is risen). So Paul is saying we have to live in newness of life (Planted in the likeness of His resurrection) by living holy (According to the commands in the New Testament and not the Old Contract, i.e. the Old Testament).

 

[112358]

It is a transitional book friend, It is a transitioning from jew to gentile and the apostle Paul was given the message of grace through faith. Even the other apostles realized this as Simon Peter told the council in Acts 11;16,17 that he in fact saw this transition

Ok. I can accept a description of Acts as a book of transition. It does outline the establishment and growth of the NT church, the transition from old covenant to new. I may be slow on the uptake here but I’m still struggling to understand the point of this line of discussion. It is primarily where we find how people became Christians in the early church. What am I missing Scotty?