I need some advice please

Southernscotty

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i havent read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
re: baprism saving us the guy on the cross next to Jesus didnt have an option to get baptised with water and Jesus said he would be in paradise with Him so he was saved without water baptism.
I have used that but they said it was because Jesus was still here and could do whatever He wanted. I say, He is still able to do what He wants, But they don't like that.
 
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Deborah D

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As I stated earlier it started in innocent fun about our particular viewpoints. Like when my buddy would come over, I would say would you like a glass of water? Just joking around. However over the years it has progressed to a worrisome thing as he thinks I am a heretic and I take that very seriously because I am held to a higher accountability as a pastor and do not want to mislead anyone.
I take the role of minister very very seriously and I believe the message with all my heart or else I would not teach it.
I now, In turn worry for this friend, because I do believe he is misled and yet I do not know how to explain the gospel in a way that causes him to see the spiritual aspect of it.
You see, I have a problem and that consist of not wanting to give up on anyone. I can't stand the thought of someone being punished and I believe that is what happens after death if someone doesn't confess Christ and accept the "free" gift.

I know in reality we can't save everyone but he is my friend and I love him, But why can't he see the grace that is in Christ ??
I see your love for your friend! I pray that he will come to the truth.
 
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StillGods

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with this stuff it might need prayer and fasting as youre not dealing with the people but the deceptions that the enemy has placed over their minds.
could you maybe get some people to pray with you for your friend? or some people who when your friend and their driend come over you can txt them and theyll pray while theyre there.
its a spiritual war we're in aswell
 
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Hazelelponi

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As I stated earlier it started in innocent fun about our particular viewpoints. Like when my buddy would come over, I would say would you like a glass of water? Just joking around. However over the years it has progressed to a worrisome thing as he thinks I am a heretic and I take that very seriously because I am held to a higher accountability as a pastor and do not want to mislead anyone.
I take the role of minister very very seriously and I believe the message with all my heart or else I would not teach it.
I now, In turn worry for this friend, because I do believe he is misled and yet I do not know how to explain the gospel in a way that causes him to see the spiritual aspect of it.
You see, I have a problem and that consist of not wanting to give up on anyone. I can't stand the thought of someone being punished and I believe that is what happens after death if someone doesn't confess Christ and accept the "free" gift.

I know in reality we can't save everyone but he is my friend and I love him, But why can't he see the grace that is in Christ ??

I would imagine every Christian at some point had a moment of doubt or a moment of struggle where they felt like they were losing faith or losing salvation, losing that first love.

In that moment we don't reach out to our own works, but we reach out and grasp a hold of His Work, and His love, and we hang on for dear life to that love and work until the doubt and fear passed..

In that moment we know we do not save ourselves.. it is never our works, as they are not enough, can never be enough to warrant deserving standing before the Throne of God..

So instead, we grasp onto the Throne of Grace, and we know in this moment from where our salvation comes.

If he's never had a moment like this it may be good for you to remind him, because in times of trial if we don't have this foundation, we will lose faith altogether.
 
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Southernscotty

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with this stuff it might need prayer and fasting as youre not dealing with the people but the deceptions that the enemy has placed over their minds.
could you maybe get some people to pray with you for your friend? or some people who when your friend and their driend come over you can txt them and theyll pray while theyre there.
its a spiritual war we're in aswell
That is a good idea, I may try that, The prayer of the righteous availeth much :]
 
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112358

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The question is, When is it that we touch the Blood?
I believe it is the moment of God's Word drawing [hearing] and us accepting [confessing] that we are immersed in the body of Christ.
They believe it is the moment of water baptism.
So when do we receive the cleansing?
I have went over old jewish purification ceremonies with them, To the early jews and apostles "everything was ceremonially washed". Anytime someone switched religions, They were baptised as a way of washing the old off and accepting the new.
John's baptism was a baptism of repentance that prepared people's hearts for Christ.

See I baptize people and it is important, But it is an outward sign of an inward change.
[ They can't stand me saying this]
You see in my opinion, We either let go and let Christ? "OR" we try to earn it by works of righteousness and that is impossible as our best works are as filthy rags
Hey Scotty. Maybe I can offer some perspective as I am also a member of the COC. I can't speak for the folks you have been studying with, but you mention that at least one is a close friend. I would venture a guess that their motives are rooted in sincerity and deep care and concern for you. The matters you are discussing with them are of utmost importance, which accounts for the urgency you detect in their delivery, not to mention the fact that apparently you are willing to at least have the discussion. Many people summarily dismiss us as soon as they find out we are COC because of past experiences or preconceived notions. We do have some folks that can be quite militant and abrasive in their approach (as do ALL religious groups btw). I'm quite certain that they are interested in nothing more than arriving at what God's Word has to say about any of it, nothing more nothing less.

Anyway, one thing that might help the discussion is to define what exactly is meant by the term "works". I say that because if the definition is anything we might do to "earn" our salvation, then belief itself is by definition a "work".

I don't know all the particulars of the struggles you have faced recently, but I pray for you regarding those and for your discussions with your friend.
 
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Southernscotty

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Hey Scotty. Maybe I can offer some perspective as I am also a member of the COC. I can't speak for the folks you have been studying with, but you mention that at least one is a close friend. I would venture a guess that their motives are rooted in sincerity and deep care and concern for you. The matters you are discussing with them are of utmost importance, which accounts for the urgency you detect in their delivery, not to mention the fact that apparently you are willing to at least have the discussion. Many people summarily dismiss us as soon as they find out we are COC because of past experiences or preconceived notions. We do have some folks that can be quite militant and abrasive in their approach (as do ALL religious groups btw). I'm quite certain that they are interested in nothing more than arriving at what God's Word has to say about any of it, nothing more nothing less.

Anyway, one thing that might help the discussion is to define what exactly is meant by the term "works". I say that because if the definition is anything we might do to "earn" our salvation, then belief itself is by definition a "work".

I don't know all the particulars of the struggles you have faced recently, but I pray for you regarding those and for your discussions with your friend.
Thanks friend and I do appreciate your response, I know he cares and this is why he is trying so hard. I respect that very much but I cannot find a common ground that we can operate on. You see friend, Anything you can do is called 'works' and we know that we can earn nothing by those.
Now out of a Christ filled loving heart, Good works will flow but nothing but faith is a requirement.
Afterall it is His grace that is offered first.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
 
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PaulCyp1

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The only advice I can offer is to become a member of the one Church Jesus Christ founded, which He said was to remain one, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth. As long as you remain a member of one of the thousands of unauthorized manmade denominational churches of Protestantism, you are going to have constant conflicts with those who are members of other denominations, and there is really no sense arguing because your denomination's interpretations of the Bible have no more authority behind them than his do.
 
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Southernscotty

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The only advice I can offer is to become a member of the one Church Jesus Christ founded, which He said was to remain one, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth. As long as you remain a member of one of the thousands of unauthorized manmade denominational churches of Protestantism, you are going to have constant conflicts with those who are members of other denominations, and there is really no sense arguing because your denomination's interpretations of the Bible have no more authority behind them than his do.
Hmmm, What makes a one true church friend?
 
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Dave-W

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I see you have had a lot of response. Without going thru 4 pages (less than 3 hours) I will say I had experience debating CoC people before.

It is a pretty tough row to hoe.
 
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Halbhh

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Thank you very much and I will look at that. I know their doctrine is misleading, But how do I combat it?
I have them looking at the dispensations that I see in the bible and I hope this gets us on the same page, However It doesn't look like it is going too.
Well, it seems to me to accomplish that by just explanation you'd need all the pieces of the full picture of being a believer following Christ in nicely brief clear summary forms (quite a project in itself!), so that they could recognize some of what you say as their own ideas put into other words. That 22 minute video from Sproul only addresses only justification alone (though usefully), only one part of our lives as Christians.

It does have hints at other key parts, like in the start it points out that it was assumed in that time (during the reformation) that repentance was basic and would be done, that repentance is essential, basic, required.

Here's another key look at works that follow from faith (not to cause faith, nor to supplement faith, nor to justify), how works are still indeed required to endure:

---------
In the New Testament, we are directly commanded by Christ Jesus this way:
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

And this is not an optional extra good, something to do for extra treasures in heaven such as giving all one's wealth to the poor, but instead this is a basic requirement of Christians because they have faith in Christ.

Why do I say "requirement" instead of just some less sharp thing like 'good thing to do'?

Why?

Because Jesus directly warns us that without doing as He said to do, our house will collapse and be destroyed --

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


Here we learn we cannot make it unless we put His commands to us into action in our lives. If we don't, eventually a storm of life will come and destroy our standing.

So, we continue to put Matthew 7:12 into practice, if we believe in Him, or because we believe in Him. Faith leads to salvation, and faith leads to actions. ("Faith without works is dead." as famously in James, for clarity.)

In (too short?) summary, real faith leads to works, if one follows the Spirit, walks in the Spirit, and does not follow the flesh, and that when they do stumble and follow the flesh, as for instance Peter did in Galatians chapter 2, that they confess (1 john chapter 1), and repent (turn), and thus surrender to God, to God's way, Christ, be reconciled and restored. John chapter 15 verses 1-17 are also very helpful for short summaries of 'good works' (Ephesians 2:10), or true 'fruit' (John chapter 15).
 
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A_Thinker

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I now, In turn worry for this friend, because I do believe he is misled and yet I do not know how to explain the gospel in a way that causes him to see the spiritual aspect of it.

I believe that COC members are saved, ... just legalistic (i.e. they could be freer) ...
 
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Dave-W

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The only advice I can offer is to become a member of the one Church Jesus Christ founded,
LOL!!!

One guy on a CoC website said that he had TWICE been a "member of the one true Church Jesus Christ founded," growing up as a catholic and then as a CoC member.
 
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Call me Nic

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We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.
What works did the thief on the cross do? What about all of the multitudes in the gospel that believed Jesus and were saved? What works did the Ethiopian eunuch do, or the Jews at Pentecost?

What was the underlying factor for their salvation? Belief.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I believe that COC members are saved, ... just legalistic (i.e. they could be freer)

That's shocking. I'd never been to a more worldly church than the COC church I visited here..

They do a lot of community outreach, but definitely a worldly bunch..
 
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Southernscotty

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Well, it seems to me you'd need all the pieces of the full picture of being a believer following Christ, so that they could recognize some of what you say as their own ideas put into other words. That 22 minute video from Sproul only addresses only justification alone (though usefully), only one part of our lives as Christians.

It does have hints at other key parts, like in the start it points out that it was assumed in that time (during the reformation) that repentance was basic and would be done, that repentance is essential, basic, required.

Here's another key look at works that follow from faith (not to cause faith, nor to supplement faith, nor to justify), how works are still indeed required to endure:

---------
In the New Testament, we are directly commanded by Christ Jesus this way:
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

And this is not an optional extra good, something to do for extra treasures in heaven such as giving all one's wealth to the poor, but instead this is a basic requirement of Christians because they have faith in Christ.

Why do I say "requirement" instead of just some less sharp thing like 'good thing to do'?

Why?

Because Jesus directly warns us that without doing as He said to do, our house will collapse and be destroyed --

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


Here we learn we cannot make it unless we put His commands to us into action in our lives. If we don't, eventually a storm of life will come and destroy our standing.

So, we continue to put Matthew 7:12 into practice, if we believe in Him, or because we believe in Him. Faith leads to salvation, and faith leads to actions. ("Faith without works is dead." as famously in James, for clarity.)

In (too short?) summary, real faith leads to works, if one follows the Spirit, walks in the Spirit, and does not follow the flesh, and that when they do stumble and follow the flesh, as for instance Peter did in Galatians chapter 2, that they confess (1 john chapter 1), and repent (turn), and thus surrender to God, to God's way, Christ, be reconciled and restored. John chapter 15 verses 1-17 are very helpful on this.
Yes real faith leads to good works. Thank you for this info and I have pretty much thrown out everything I have [which isn't much to begin with] but they are so dead set on converting me.
Sadly debating this and going over this same thing day after day affects other areas of my study and ministry. I do appreciate all the helps guys :]
 
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112358

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Thanks friend and I do appreciate your response, I know he cares and this is why he is trying so hard. I respect that very much but I cannot find a common ground that we can operate on. You see friend, Anything you can do is called 'works' and we know that we can earn nothing by those.
Now out of a Christ filled loving heart, Good works will flow but nothing but faith is a requirement.
Afterall it is His grace that is offered first.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Well, like I said, faith/belief being a requirement (something we do), you have by definition just described a "works" based salvation. This contradiction happens to be my biggest issue with "faith alone", but I really did not intend to start yet another debate here, especially since the one in which you are currently engaged has become stressful to you.

Keep talking with your friend. Don't assume they are after anything but the Truth. If that's what you are all seeking together, you will all find it! Prayers and peace.
 
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Anyway, one thing that might help the discussion is to define what exactly is meant by the term "works". I say that because if the definition is anything we might do to "earn" our salvation, then belief itself is by definition a "work".

I just posted the following to another thread, read your thoughtful and kind response here, and thought it relevant to the text of yours quoted above.

The following question was asked:

"Some people believe they will be judged righteous on the basis of their faith. How would you respond to these folks?"

To which I responded:

If my mind did not go blank, I would quote from Hebrews, that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Some translations use the word "captain", either way "our" faith is completely dependent on the captain, the preserver of faith. Where people get it wrong is looking at faith as something conjured within the human will, it is an autonomous view of the origin of faith in a person, and ridiculous because of the connection between faith and spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh, the flesh cannot conjure the spiritual.
On another note, I like to flip the script sometimes, and if salvation is based on works, then it is entirely based on the finished work of Christ alone, and the works of the Spirit in and through us, to the glory of God alone, without mixture of glory to men.
 
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Southernscotty

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What works did the thief on the cross do? What about all of the multitudes in the gospel that believed Jesus and were saved? What works did the Ethiopian eunuch do, or the Jews at Pentecost?

What was the underlying factor for their salvation? Belief.
The eunuch is one of their main examples. How he said "here is water, What prohibits me from being baptized? So I have been up and down that road a bunch brother. :]
 
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Halbhh

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Yes real faith leads to good works. Thank you for this info and I have pretty much thrown out everything I have [which isn't much to begin with] but they are so dead set on converting me.
Sadly debating this and going over this same thing day after day affects other areas of my study and ministry. I do appreciate all the helps guys :]
I feel for you. Perhaps you should try to convert them!
 
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