A testimony about praying to Mary

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

All specifics aside, the heart of this post is very good. Seeking truth above our own ideals is a central part of the Christian struggle. While we seem to disagree on what this truth is (as I try to be a strong advocate for the Rosary), it's still good to see effort. But I would like people to be informed as to Catholic doctrine before insulting it; the Church has a book called the Catechism of the Catholic Church, available for free on the Vatican's website, that explains Catholic teachings. Reading it is how to see what the Church truly teaches, not just a human's misunderstandings of the Church.

 

[anna ~ grace]

What many, many people fail to realize is that the hymns, prayers, traditions, theology, and hagiology of the earliest Christians did not spring soley from what would later be described as the Bible, but from a culture of prayer, faith, devotion, and practice that is in fact Apostolic. This includes Scripture, but was not limited to the contents of Scripture alone.

 

[TuxAme]

Something appeared for sure but we can't ask things to the dead...

By something, you mean who Scripture plainly states appeared, right? As in, Samuel, Moses and Elijah?

its not their Job to listen to our prayers.

Scripture would have to disagree with you. Revelation describes how the elders (who are distinct from God and the angels) hold bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints. They, along with the angels, offer the prayers to God. So this is actually very much their job.

 

[GingerBeer]

The bible forbids to consult the dead. If you ask to a dead person, to give you something or show you something are you not actually consulting the dead?

Well, tell Jesus that. He summoned Lazarus from the grave saying "Lazarus come forth!" and like I said before he told the story of Lazarus and the rich man in which Abraham chats with the rich man. I think you're making things up.

 

[GingerBeer]

My mother and grandmother were both raised catholics, they became evangelicals my mother first and she then convinced my grandmother.

Yeah, that's how it works. Preach to the converted and try to recruit them to your sect.

 

[GingerBeer]

The 3 people were on the other side, don't give abraham or dead believers God like features like listening of thousands of prayer at the same time, and say that he actually responds please. God bless.

Why not. The saints in heaven exist in eternity so listening to lots of things is no problem, they are not time bound like you and I. God isn't time bound either so he hears prayers from 7 billion people and all the dead and all the yet to be born without any difficulty. Of course, being God helps a lot.

 

[truefiction1]

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing.
And I hope it does not offend anyone!

As children of God, we MUST LOVE TRUTH more than our paradigms! We must be willing to allow ourselves to see the TRUTH and release “sacred cows”. Or we run the very real risk of BEING DECEIVED and FALLING AWAY!
I will provide a personal example of this and I apologize in advance to anyone that this upsets, but we are in the times that we must be BOLD in declaring God’s truth.
I was raised Catholic and remained in the faith through the age of 21. One day, God showed me that praying to the Virgin Mary dishonored Him and was a violation of The Ten Commandments, specifically “You shall have no other Gods before me”. If I had refused to hear God, think about and reflect on this correction from God
and not be open to His revelation, I would never have realized how wrong was the practice of praying to The Virgin Mary and reciting the Holy Mary Mother of God prayer. I was initially shocked by this Revelation,
but my LOVE for the truth and desire to honor God was stronger than 21 years of participating in this practice!
I share this as ENCOURAGEMENT to ALL of us to LOVE the truth more than ANYTHING else so we do NOT become deceived!
--- Dave Hodges of “The Common Sense Show”

Offend anyone? It offends God, and even depicts Him falsely, revealing Him to be a likeness of Satan.

Lord have mercy, and do not hold this sin against them.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I realize some Protestants think they can read the minds of others when they see them prostrate but (A) you don't have ESP and (B) there's no reason to doubt Catholics when we say we only worship God.

No one has to read minds, they can see for themselves Catholics bowing down to the statues/graven images, and praying. How is that not both the things covered in the following?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

What's happening is absolutely blatant, again...how is it not?

Statues? That's veneration.

Does calling it veneration make it ok? Where in the bible does it make exceptions for the commandment?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Lord have mercy, and do not hold this sin against them.

What sin? Calling a duck a duck?

 

[truefiction1]

The bible forbids to consult the dead. If you ask to a dead person, to give you something or show you something are you not actually consulting the dead?

Mary's not dead. If she was, then her prayers would not have cured that woman who had incurrable, stage 4 cancer last month. Besides, you'd have a hard time convincing me or anyone else who believes in Christ that He would suffer His own mother to be in hades. What do you think we are, stupid? If you were God, and your most pure mother died, what would you do about it? You'd raise her up, and bring her to be with you where you are. That is exactly what God has done, and the Apostles all witnessed it. That's the truth that you're not aware of, having been removed from the holy Church for about 1500 years.

What sin? Calling a duck a duck?

The sin of spiritual ignorance.

 

[anna ~ grace]

No one has to read minds, they can see for themselves Catholics bowing down to the statues/graven images, and praying. How is that not both the things covered in the following?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

What's happening is absolutely blatant, again...how is it not?



Does calling it veneration make it ok? Where in the bible does it make exceptions for the commandment?

Well, the Ark of the Covenant, for one.

Joshua 7:6

Crying out to God in front of an image before which you have just bowed and fallen on your face.

 

[anna ~ grace]

An image topped with gold statues of cherubim (the heavens above). So....

 

[Kenny'sID]

The sin of spiritual ignorance.

Then you are saying it's fine to make a graven image, and bow down to it, and anyone that disagrees is spiritually ignorant? Please, don't just make the accusation, explain why you think that...we have done as much.

I'll give you benefit of the doubt until you answer the question/explain but my thoughts are tending towards you being spiritually ignorant or much worse, not to mention in blatant denial.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, the Ark of the Covenant, for one.

Joshua 7:6

Crying out to God in front of an image before which you have just bowed and fallen on your face.

How does any of that mean it's OK to make the graven image and bow down to it? Something that is specifically forbidden. I'm really at a loss here, and always have been on this, it's as if someone read the commandments and made a rule to flat out break that one. The commandment is not even the least bit confusing...I just don't get it.

Do you feel your comments somehow do away with, or allow exception for that commandment, and if so, how/why exactly?

 

[truefiction1]

Then you are saying it's fine to make a graven image, and bow down to it, and anyone that disagrees is spiritually ignorant? Please, don't just make the accusation, explain why you think that...we have done as much.

I'll give you benefit of the doubt until you answer the question/explain but my thoughts are tending towards you being spiritually ignorant or much worse, not to mention in blatant denial.

I'm saying that when a person does not know God, by the Holy Spirit, then God's Word is easily misunderstood. Whenever this happens, the evil one, by his army of demons, capitalizes on it to convince the spiritually ignorant to teach that it is offensive to God to honor those in whom Christ Himself lives. It's all a lie -- a big, fat lie. Satan loves when people have contempt for the Theotokos, whom he hates with so great a hatred, because her seed, Christ, has crushed his head with His almighty heel.

Now that, brother, is "calling a duck a duck".

 

[prodromos]

How does any of that mean it's OK to make the graven image and bow down to it? Something that is specifically forbidden. I'm really at a loss here, and always have been on this, it's as if someone read the commandments and made a rule to flat out break that one. The commandment is not even the least bit confusing...I just don't get it.

Do you feel your comments somehow do away with, or allow exception for that commandment, and if so, how/why exactly?

It goes hand in hand with the previous commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me". The context was the pagans who the Israelites were displacing in the promised land, who had images carved out of wood and stone who they considered to be their gods.

 

[GingerBeer]

That's the truth that you're not aware of, having been removed from the holy Church for about 1500 years.

I think that your arithmetic is a little bit wrong; even if you count from "the great schism" it would still be 1,000 years not 1,500 years.

 

[Simplistik]

I am a nondenominational protestant so I don't agree w/ praying to anyone but God and I feel that Jesus is our intercessor before the Father and we need no intercessor before Jesus, as Catholic's consider Saints and Mary in particular.

That being said, many protestants misunderstand Marian devotion and believe that Catholic's are WORSHIPPING Mary, which is absolutely NOT the case in most instances. I'm sure there are some Catholic's who elevate Mary to the level of Godhood but as I understand it, most do not.

I am reading "Father Peyton's Rosary Prayer Book" right now and it seems to me he elevates her to near Godhood. In it he describes how he came down with an incurable, terminal illness and after praying the rosary and to Mary to intercede on his behalf with God he was miraculously cured. He even went so far as to thank MARY for his miraculous recovery and NOT GOD! His dying words were "Mary, my Queen, my Mother."

Anyway, I digress, there is also a difference between veneration, devotion and worship, with worship being solely, entirely and strictly for God. Miriam-webster defines veneration as "to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference." and if we look at the Bible, in the Gospel's we see that God blessed Mary forever among women and Elizabeth even venerates her, and let's face it, she IS the mother of God after all. And as far as devotion is concerned, I can devote myself to my Pastor and his teachings without worshipping him.

So, TRUE Marian devotion, when understood correctly, is just the respect due to the mother of Jesus, the one who brought our Lord into this world, the one whom God blessed among women for all generations. The Hail Mary is just a repetition of Gabriel and Elizabeth's pronouncements regarding her and the fruit of her womb.

I'm still not convinced that she is an "ever virgin", although the evidence for that is intriguing nor am I convinced that we should pray to her but I do understand why people ask her and the saints to pray for us.

 

[Loyce KG]

Statues? That's veneration.

Again, veneration.

Indeed they do. I kiss my fiancee. Is that wrong too?

Is your fiancee a statue? To equate kissing your fiancee as being one with kissing a statue of the dead is confusing. If she passed on (God-forbid) and a statue were made of her (that would be weird) would you keep it in your house and kiss it before worship of God almighty?

 

[Loyce KG]

Your wall text is rather impenetrable.

But to focus on a few salient points, and to reiterate the above, we do not worship Our Lady. Somebody's inability (or unwillingness) to recognize that fact doesn't change the fact.

The Co-Redemptrix thing is technically true but it's a lot easier to misunderstand than it is to understand. The title refers to her role in the Incarnation. Without her assent, Our Lord would not have been born. She was not a womb with feet. She was an active participant in His Incarnation. She had a key, though minor, role in bringing redemption to the world.

As it turns out though, the Co-Redemptrix thing is not dogma. Pope John Paul II was probably the most Marian Pope in the last few centuries, possibly the most Marian ever. And if he wasn't quite willing to say that Our Lady as Co-Redemptrix is Church dogma, the odds of it ever becoming dogma seem pretty slim to me. This is speculative stuff and so Catholics are not bound to believe in it. They can if they want to though.

"Until"? Really, you're using that?

Our Lady's Immaculate Conception is bothersome to a lot of people. But it proceeds from a pretty sound chain of logic. The more I consider it, the more it makes perfect sense.

As to her Perpetual Virginity, the Early Church believed it. This includes people who were personally taught and trained by the apostles. Why do you think you know something more about her than they do?

"Without her assent, Our Lord would not have been born." This statement you made is contrary to scripture and is a slap in the face of God' sovereignity. With all due respect, Christ would have been born with or without mary's assent. The Spirit of God revealed to her what would be and she responded in faith. This has nothing to do with her being a focal determinant of whether the messiah would be born or not. God uses willing vessels.