A testimony about praying to Mary

[JLHargus]

Consider Luke 16 concerning how Jesus portrayed the afterlife in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Did Lazarus have contact with the world? Could he hear people praying for him? No. He would have to be raised from the dead.

JL: First the Rich Man and Lazarus were not in heaven, no one entered heaven before Christ ascended opening the gates of heaven for the children of God, otherwise there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross.

Lk16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.]

Before the ascension of Christ into heaven all souls of men including Jesus, the thief, the Rich Man and Lazarus went to one of the chambers of Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English. Their souls captive in the abode of the dead before Christ. Their bodies were laid in a tomb or buried.

The just souls went into the chamber called Abraham's Bosom=paradise where they were comforted. The unjust souls went in the the chamber of torment.

[Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]

[1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;]

[1Pt4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]

Christ descended to Hell and preached to the OT just souls in Abraham's bosom=paradise.

[Hb11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3- 37 …. 38(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.]

We see that great cloud of OT witnesses now made perfect in heavenly Jerusalem [Hb12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,]

[Hb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.] All Scripture KJV public domain Biblegatway.

CCC631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

CCC632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

CCC633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

CCC634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

CCC635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

CCC636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14). Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 5 PARAGRAPH 1 Link St Charles Borromeo Catechism Catholic Church.

 

[JLHargus]

[QUOTE="bcbsr, post: 73425860, member: 7696"] In contrast to this here's what a Catholic theologian wrote to me: It was because in Jewish culture this would have meant that Joseph acknowledged biological fatherhood over Jesus. Because he refused to do this he was saying in essence that he did not accept Jesus as his biological son though he would accept him as his legal son. By refusing to consummate his marriage with Mary he was in conformity with the Jewish Law. By not having intercourse with Mary before the birth of Jesus he is acknowledging in principle that he was also forbidden to have intercourse with her thereafter. A woman found to be with child that is not her husband’s is forbidden forever more to him and to the man who impregnated her. (In fact, a woman caught in adultery is likewise penalized.) Under Jewish law, because Mary was found to be with child before she had consummated her marriage to Joseph she was forever forbidden to him. He could keep her as his wife but he was not allowed intimate relations with her. Had Mary born any children after Jesus she would have been stoned to death under the Law. Had Joseph claimed those children to be biologically his, he would have been stoned to death also. That’s completely bogus! What Jewish Law was he in conformity with? There is no such law. At the least the Law indicates divorce in such circumstances (which is what Joseph had considered before the angel showed up), and at most the penalty was death. But under Jewish law the penalty CERTAINLY WAS NOT being forced to be married to the woman without ever being able to have sex. It’s a complete Catholic fabrication. And what is this foolishness about being stoned to death if she had other children!!! And not only that but Joseph being stone to death as well!! The Law of Moses says nothing of the kind. [/quote]

JL: I put in bold print your assessment of your above post. I agree with you totally that’s completely bogus.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I thought this was interesting and worth sharing.
And I hope it does not offend anyone!

As children of God, we MUST LOVE TRUTH more than our paradigms! We must be willing to allow ourselves to see the TRUTH and release “sacred cows”. Or we run the very real risk of BEING DECEIVED and FALLING AWAY!
I will provide a personal example of this and I apologize in advance to anyone that this upsets, but we are in the times that we must be BOLD in declaring God’s truth.
I was raised Catholic and remained in the faith through the age of 21. One day, God showed me that praying to the Virgin Mary dishonored Him and was a violation of The Ten Commandments, specifically “You shall have no other Gods before me”. If I had refused to hear God, think about and reflect on this correction from God
and not be open to His revelation, I would never have realized how wrong was the practice of praying to The Virgin Mary and reciting the Holy Mary Mother of God prayer. I was initially shocked by this Revelation,
but my LOVE for the truth and desire to honor God was stronger than 21 years of participating in this practice!
I share this as ENCOURAGEMENT to ALL of us to LOVE the truth more than ANYTHING else so we do NOT become deceived!
--- Dave Hodges of “The Common Sense Show”

For the record, I'm a Lutheran and so don't petition the saints to pray for me (including the Holy and Blessed Virgin); but this argument presented above doesn't mean anything. Just because someone claims to have heard God say something means absolutely nothing. We do not build our faith and practice upon the personal experiences of lone individuals, but upon the inspired witness of Scripture and the teaching and practice of the whole Church of God.

If I came to you saying God told me that petitioning Mary to pray for me honors Him, would you believe it? Of course not. Which is why claiming God said the opposite deserves no merit either.

I don't ask the mother of God or any of the dearly departed saints to pray for me, not because of reasons like this, but because we have no way of knowing whether those who have fallen asleep in the Lord can hear such petitions; even though we know from Scripture that the saints and angels do pray for us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BCsenior]

Just because someone claims to have heard God say something means absolutely nothing. We do not build our faith and practice upon the personal experiences of lone individuals ...

Yes, of course, you are absolutely correct!
His experience simply confirms those of countless others,
and what the word of God says about who to pray to.

A similar confirmation is ...
The countless warnings in the epistles to the churches
are confirmed by the countless warnings given
to God's prophets and watchmen over the years
(and especially lately), which are supposed to be
passed on to the sheep in the churches (obviously).
A little excerpt from one of these messages ...
"shepherds leading multitudes to hell".

Two of the most dangerous doctrines in the church
coming under these labels: "hyper grace", "grace only".
(1) eternal security, OSAS
(2) habitual (unrepentant) sin is okay
Sincere repentance before God is required
of the born-again believer to enter heaven!
Repentance: sorrow, and run from your sin

 

[JLHargus]

[QUOTE="bcbsr, post: 73425860, member: 7696"] And so also the Catholic Church never teaches how at one time Mary though Jesus was crazy. "Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his familyheard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.'" Mark 3:20,21 Then if we continue on to verse 31 when they actually arrived it says: Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother." Mark 3:31-35 Now we understand the sense of what Jesus meant. For at this point his mother and brothers were not doing the will of God in attempting to take him away from his ministry. And we see further evidence in John 7 that his brothers held him in contempt. This was kind of a rebuke, an insult to Mary who came to interfere with his mission. Who did Jesus say was his "mother" here? He looked away from Mary and look at those seated around him and viewed them as his mother instead. We can at least deduce from this that Jesus didn't make a big deal about his mother Mary. And certainly didn't make her into a goddess as the Catholic Church has done. And when it comes to incidents like this where she is not doing God's will she is less than no big deal. In view of her behavior here Christ wouldn't even acknowledge her as his mother until she repents. Secondly when Jesus said, "Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother" this brings up the idea of members of a common household - an immediate family. This issue was intimacy with Jesus. I don't read this as saying "Whoever does God’s will is my second cousin twice removed on my father's side". I read this as one's immediate family, the members of whom grow up in a common household. [/quote]

JL: [Mk3:6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him. 7-19 …. 20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27-29 …. 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. 31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.]

Who know's what rumors the Scribes and Pharisees had been spreading that reached Christ's home town and would have concerned his mother and brethren=kin.

[Jn7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.]

As far as Jesus’ brethren=kin in John7 not believing, that’s why the world couldn’t hate them they were still part of the world. We see them believing in the upper room at Pentecost.

[Acts1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.]

The fact that Mary is mentioned by name shows she was held in high esteem as was the apostles who were mentioned by name. In my previous posts starting with post #150 above I have posted some of the great things God has done to Mary.

[Acts1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.]