Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

DeeR.

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He never said Augustine was simplistic he said Augustine's argument, based on his lack of Greek knowledge, was simplistic. you need to reread his post.
Oh forgive me, when someone tells me that a strong Christian leader and pillar is lying and being too simple in expressing the word of God to the known world I felt he was reflecting on his character. Especially his character in a matter that wasn't even from or by him. Augustine so freely admitted that he did not know Greek or care to that he rarely rested his wisdom on Greek. Augustine and his writing are not even in question here though, just speaking about his works and how they were false is so unnecessary here.
 
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Pneuma3

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Oh forgive me, when someone tells me that a strong Christian leader and pillar is lying and being too simple in expressing the word of God to the known world I felt he was reflecting on his character

Where did clement say Augustine was lying?

Especially his character in a matter that wasn't even from or by him. Augustine so freely admitted that he did not know Greek or care to that he rarely rested his wisdom on Greek. Augustine and his writing are not even in question here though, just speaking about his works and how they were false is so unnecessary here.

And Augustine's understanding of Greek caused him to see things the way he did.
He might not be the first person to believe in eternal punishment but he is by far the one who made it popular.
 
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Where did clement say Augustine was lying?



And Augustine's understanding of Greek caused him to see things the way he did.
He might not be the first person to believe in eternal punishment but he is by far the one who made it popular.
No it is the scripture and Jesus that made it popular and spurious by definition is fake false illegitimate and not what it claims to be. Augustine's understanding of God did not rest on Greek but on his relationship from God and the Holy Spirit
 
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DeeR.

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That was Augustine's spurious, simplistic argument. He was quite ignorant of the Greek language. Consider, for example, the following:

More literal translations of the Greek word aionion in Mt.25:46 say:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

For further reading re Matthew 25:46:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?




Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

Words have various meanings depending upon their context. In ancient Koine Greek, which includes the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, aionios refers - at least sometimes - if not often - to a finite duration, not eternal duration. Many scholars admit that the Greek word aionios is used of age lasting and/or finite duration . Even more scholars recognize that fact. The fact is the word aionios can refer to a finite duration. For example:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios:

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is eternal. The word "aionios" is also used to describe
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14),
salvation (Hebrews 5:9),
redemption (Hebrews 9:12),
the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11),
the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16),
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10),
and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1).
Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.

So then what you are saying by your version of the definition used of 'aionios'
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), reference refers to a temporary, not an eternal Spirit of God
salvation (Hebrews 5:9), God's salvation is temporary
redemption (Hebrews 9:12), Christ's dying to redeem us only temporary
The kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), His kingdom is temporary
The honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), is temporary
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), is temporary
and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Are not incorruptible but temporary...
and many more???? I do not follow your logic
 
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Pneuma3

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No it is the scripture and Jesus that made it popular and spurious by definition is fake false illegitimate and not what it claims to be. Augustine's understanding of God did not rest on Greek but on his relationship from God and the Holy Spirit

Jesus NEVER EVER refers to eternal torment. The Greek word for eternal is aidios and it is NEVER used in conjunction with the judgments of God.
So no Jesus did not make eternal torment popular, the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word aionios did and that misunderstanding was made popular by Augustine.
 
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DeeR.

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Jesus NEVER EVER refers to eternal torment. The Greek word for eternal is aidios and it is NEVER used in conjunction with the judgments of God.
So no Jesus did not make eternal torment popular, the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word aionios did and that misunderstanding was made popular by Augustine.
Not true
 
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DeeR.

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Jesus NEVER EVER refers to eternal torment. The Greek word for eternal is aidios and it is NEVER used in conjunction with the judgments of God.
So no Jesus did not make eternal torment popular, the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word aionios did and that misunderstanding was made popular by Augustine.

So then what you are saying by your version of the definition used of 'aionios'
(Romans 16:26) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), reference refers to a temporary, not an eternal Spirit of God ?
salvation (Hebrews 5:9), God's salvation is temporary?
redemption (Hebrews 9:12), Christ's dying to redeem us only temporary?
The kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), His kingdom is temporary
The honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), is temporary
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), is temporary?
(John 6:27) Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Is this meaning temporary also?
(John 6:47) Truly I say to you, he that believes in me has everlasting life.
and this?
and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Are not incorruptible but temporary...
and many more???? I do not follow your logic
 
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Pneuma3

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(2Th 1:9)
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ????
So then what you are saying by your version of the definition used of 'aionios'
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), reference refers to a temporary, not an eternal Spirit of God
salvation (Hebrews 5:9), God's salvation is temporary
redemption (Hebrews 9:12), Christ's dying to redeem us only temporary
The kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), His kingdom is temporary
The honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), is temporary
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), is temporary
(John 6:27) Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Is this meaning temporary also?
(John 6:47) Truly I say to you, he that believes in me has everlasting life.
and this?
and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Are not incorruptible but temporary...
and many more???? I do not follow your logic

See you have been swept up in Augustine's error you take aionios as meaning aidios and they are NOT THE SAME and do NOT HAVE THE SAME MEANING.

Please show me where Jesus uses the Greek word aidios\eternal in conjunction with His judgments.
 
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DeeR.

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See you have been swept up in Augustine's error you take aionios as meaning aidios and they are NOT THE SAME and do NOT HAVE THE SAME MEANING.

Please show me where Jesus uses the Greek word aidios\eternal in conjunction with His judgments.
and you have been swept up by the error that the root is the same and derived from the same meaning but most importantly you will not realize the context of all of these scriptures
 
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DeeR.

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See you have been swept up in Augustine's error you take aionios as meaning aidios and they are NOT THE SAME and do NOT HAVE THE SAME MEANING.

Please show me where Jesus uses the Greek word aidios\eternal in conjunction with His judgments.
Please show me your answers for the words of scripture quoted in the passages I listed.... what are the words meaning what is the root word here in the scriptures, please tell me?
Which word is used in all of those scriptures in the Greek?
 
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DeeR.

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still waiting for you to show me ONE scripture where the Greek word aidios\eternal is used in conjunction with eternal torment.
Still waiting for you to answer my scripture quote questions I asked before your question

Show me one of those that contains aiōnios that I mentioned that means anything other than eternal...
 
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Pneuma3

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and you have been swept up by the error that the root is the same and derived from the same meaning but most importantly you will not realize the context of all of these scriptures

so you are saying what? that the adjective of aion does not work as an adjective at all but is its own word.
 
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Pneuma3

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Please show me your answers for the words of scripture quoted in the passages I listed.... what are the words meaning what is the root word here in the scriptures, please tell me?
Which word is used in all of those scriptures in the Greek?

at work, so read YLT and you can see for yourself
 
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Pneuma3

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Still waiting for you to answer my scripture quote questions I asked before your question

Show me one of those that contains aiōnios that I mentioned that means anything other than eternal...
Like I said I am at work right now but everyone of those scriptures is referring to that which pertains to an age. Read YLT or Rotherhams.
 
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DeeR.

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Like I said I am at work right now but everyone of those scriptures is referring to that which pertains to an age. Read YLT or Rotherhams.
lol really? Okay so you haven't read them and will not address them. Have a good day.
 
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DeeR.

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No they refer to that which pertains to an age and is of unknown duration.
NOne of the scriptures I quoted even remotely have anything to do with that.. maybe you are reading the wrong passages.
 
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